Path: utzoo!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!mailrus!cwjcc!gatech!mcdchg!ddsw1!karl From: karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Karl Denninger) Newsgroups: comp.mail.uucp Subject: Re: Maps Subverted Summary: Still don't see the problem; this is a public forum and you know it Keywords: short term, long term, database, sabotage, commercialism, bullshit Message-ID: <2898@ddsw1.MCS.COM> Date: 9 Feb 89 23:36:16 GMT References: <405@mjbtn.MFEE.TN.US> <399@lakart.UUCP> <3661@phri.UUCP> <453@avsd.UUCP> <2844@ddsw1.MCS.COM> <465@avsd.UUCP> Reply-To: karl@ddsw1.UUCP (Karl Denninger) Organization: Macro Computer Solutions, Inc., Mundelein, IL Lines: 119 In article <465@avsd.UUCP> childers@avsd.UUCP (Richard Childers) writes: +karl@ddsw1.UUCP (Karl Denninger) writes: + +>In article <453@avsd.UUCP> childers@avsd.UUCP (Richard Childers) writes: + .....(why should admins) +have to engage in a defensive posture towards predatory commercial interests +in their day-to-day duties as UUCP administrator. Predatory? Again, I don't see anything predatory about the newspapers I received. I could have probably called the company that sent them and had my name removed if I did have a problem with it. +>Those sites which DID do this would be saying to those nasty mailing-list +>mongers: "Don't waste your 21 cents sending your crap to me, it'll get +>round-filed without even being read". + +I say that publishing the UUCP maps is inappropriate, if it's to facilitate +profiteering. You seem to feel it's OK, and that the burden is upon me to +make it difficult for them to sell to me. I say I shouldn't have to do such +a thing. My privacy should be assured, it should never come into question. No, I disagree there. By listing your site in a public place you have lost that privacy. You can be completely private if you wish (at some cost in connectivity) by simply not publishing a map entry, and using one site to mail through (with explicit return paths). Yes, it's sloppy, but you're now an "unknown" and could have some presumption of privacy. The very reason for the maps is to facilitate communication.....of both the computer AND human kind. There would be no need for 90% of the data if the only purpose was to list mail connectivity! +Private abuse of confidential information is inescapable. But I see no reason +to institutionalize it. Do you ? + +I'm sure there are a lot of people with home UUCP machines whom are asking the +exact same question. I don't think I'm alone here. No, you're not alone. Perhaps you and other have stepped into a public world without realizing it; that was, nonetheless, a choice you did make. Usenet is by it's nature a public and free network. +>I, for one, don't mind at all that we get some more information in the mail, +>or a newpaper or two. Others have posted concurring views; I've received +>several "yep, me too"s in the mail as well. + +Time will tell. I'd like a commercial network like USENET, too, but it won't +be possible without public key encryption, otherwise competitors will be +erasing each others' stuff when it passes through their machines, and what's +to date been a happy, con-competitive, cooperative environment will fall +apart at the seams. We're not talking about a commercial network (I never was); we're talking about someone who used the network maps for a mailing list. Whether these companies did it themselves, or someone sold a list to them, is irrelavent. It was pointed out, if the buyer paid more than half-hour programming time, they got ripped off (and we should be laughing). +Nothing stopping them from using conventional channels of advertising. As you +pointed out, you're already on a zillion different mailing lists and databases. +Why do they have to shit in our uupond ? It's only you and a few others who feel it's "shit" in "your" pond. Lots of others like the material (or at least heat their homes with it) :-) I, for one, don't mind it one bit, and I'll say it now: Anyone who wants to "use" my entry in the maps for a mailing list is welcome to do so. Heh, here we go! A new field: #M YES (for ok on mailing list) #M NO (you send it, I'll bitch and/or sue 'ya :-) Would that satisfy everyone? I, for one, _condone_ companys using my name and address info from here for mailings and such. I laugh at those that are stupid enough to pay for such a list when it's freely available, but nonetheless, I don't mind getting these things in the regular mail. +>Or is it "I don't want the crap, and I don't want to be bothered." Fine. +>Fix your OWN entry so the physical address isn't shown. Leave the rest of +>us who DO want our addresses known to the public ALONE. And quit carping +>about a situation that is, in the end, your own doing. + +Oh, brother. I sold the UUCP database to a mailing list company, huh. Is your +thinking always this ... clear ? No no no no no. You divulged your address of your own free will. No one coerced you into doing so. You published it without a request or anything else asking that others not use it (ie: public domain, remember?). (non-informative response on "sabotage" deleted) + +>Stealing from Usenet? How can you steal from Usenet? Did the people who +>made this list steal from me? No, they GAVE TO ME. Gifts! ... +>What's the problem? + +I'm already choking my fireplace with crap paper from home junk mail. I'll be +damned if I'll cart home junk mail I get at work. Then throw it out unread and unopened. Sheesh. +I'd like to hear what people say about a misc.commercial newsgroup before +I go #P'ing all over my map entry. It already exists. It's called biz (the distribution). Ask your news person to get it for you... +>Karl Denninger (karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM, ddsw1!karl) + +-- richard --- Karl Denninger (karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM, ddsw1!karl) Data: [+1 312 566-8912], Voice: [+1 312 566-8910] Macro Computer Solutions, Inc. "Quality solutions at a fair price"