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From: sorgatz@ttidca.TTI.COM ( Avatar)
Newsgroups: sci.space
Subject: Re: Heavy Lift Vehicle
Message-ID: <3886@ttidca.TTI.COM>
Date: 14 Feb 89 00:39:19 GMT
References: <4XwVpQy00Xc94aJ3IN@andrew.cmu.edu>
Reply-To: sorgatz@ttidcb.tti.com (Erik Sorgatz - Avatar)
Organization: Citicorp/TTI, Santa Monica
Lines: 80
Summary:the cost depends on who does it!
Keywords:NASA bureaucracy vs. Small Startup Space Co.

<< sys:f "Lineeater full...system restart initiated...wait.." >>

In article <4XwVpQy00Xc94aJ3IN@andrew.cmu.edu> kr0u+@andrew.cmu.edu (Kevin William Ryan) writes:
>
>   On a more serious note - numerous people have asked about redoing the
>Saturn V, despite the fact that NASA pitched most of the plans and machinery
>for same.  It seems that the cost would be almost prohibitive.

 Assuming that there were NO PLANS or tooling (which simply isn't the case.)
the entire SATURN 5 system (airframe, tanks, plumbing, electrical and the
mighty F1's) COULD BE duplicated using the existing display units as models.

 If NASA were involved, it would be. But if it were done by a small, private
company (Sierra Space Corp??? ;-) ) using ex-Rockwell employees...being paid
medium-good jobshopper's wages...it could cost as little as $800K. Yup.

 This figure was decided upon by several ex-Rockwell employees, one of whom
is my father! His statements included such salty-quips as:

 "..Assuming we didn't have those assinine, know-nothing Government Inspector
Kids breathing down our necks!...why those clowns wouldn't know a micrometer
from a lathe if one jumped up their ass!"


 His friends had equally 'ripe' remarks  about  the  remaining  management
infrastructure  that hinders the NASA/Contractor environment.  The more of
this kind of stuff that I hear from these "Apollo Team" oldies, the more I
am  totally  convinced that the high cost of the NASA-approach is a result
of  too  many  'hangers-on'...i.e.  excess   layers   of   management-type
personnel.

 Using the existing display models as inputs to a Gorton Duplicator, a part
profile could be created for each of the 2 millon+ subcomponents. This info
would be in the form of Cincimatic (or similar) NC tapes.  There are several
software packages that can convert this information to standard 3-view and
detail prints in whatever size you'd like. Shop prints are usually 'D' size,
for those of you who have never worked in a machine shop, roughly 36" x 56".

 Actually manufacturing these parts, combining them into a Saturn Clone, is
a bit more work..but could still be done.  Seperate small teams (3-5 people)
would manage semi-skilled crews of 20-50 for each of the major subsystems:

 Airframe -- NC made struts, complex folded & welded/riveted sheetmetal.

 Tanks & Plumbing -- TIG & MIG welds on various alloys, complex sheetmetal.

 Engine & Turbopump -- exotic alloy machining, welding and finishing.

 Electrical & Hydraulics -- complex hi-reliability crimping/fastening/testing.
			    hi-precision machining, and assembly.

 System/Subsystem Test --  complete checkout and static firing.

 This could be accomplished by a small-to-medium sized private company, with
250-300 employees, most of whom could be semi-skilled (in the assembly) or
journeyman level (for the machining & welding).

 Look for the startup costs to be just over $1 million. With the cost of
finished S5-clones to run $800K per copy for the first 20, cheaper from
20-50 (maybe a 10% cost roll-off), and cheaper yet from 50-100.

>   I would like to know if anyone has information about the Saturn launcher
>used for the early Apollo tests (the IIB?) - were the plans for that pitched
>as well?  Surely the capacity to orbit the mass of the LM/SM/CM combination
>would be useful.  Does anyone know if the plans for that are still around?
>
>                                                  kwr

 You mean vehicle or launchpad (platform)?  The vehicle, Saturn 2b is in the
same mess as the Saturn 5...mostly "lost", some tooling, a few (3 I think)
display models adorning AFB's etc...one at Huston's Space Museum.

 ..anybody interested in starting a company? Got a "few" bucks and a little
vision?  Rockwell just retired a bunch of Apollo-era M.E.s...and most of them
are just sitting around bored with their retirements!
-- 
-Avatar-> (aka: Erik K. Sorgatz) KB6LUY           +-------------------------+
Citicorp(+)TTI                          *----------> panic trap; type = N+1 *
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