Path: utzoo!attcan!uunet!lll-winken!ames!mailrus!iuvax!purdue!mentor.cc.purdue.edu!asd From: asd@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Kareth) Newsgroups: comp.sys.apple Subject: Re: Why, why, why? Message-ID: <1878@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> Date: 19 Mar 89 17:51:51 GMT References: <9098@claris.com> <1869@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> <27536@apple.Apple.COM> Reply-To: asd@mace.cc.purdue.edu (Kareth) Organization: Purdue University Lines: 135 In article <27536@apple.Apple.COM> mattd@Apple.COM (Matt Deatherage) writes: >Denying what? An article in next week's MacWeek that I haven't even seen? How about when it does? >No response about a rumor could do anything other than hurt current sales. If >I say "What you want is not coming", you tell all your friends not to buy Apple >IIgs computers. If I say "What you want is coming", you tell all your friends >to wait until it gets here. In either case, current sales go down the tubes. Why should I go out and waste my money to create a workable system (right now that means getting a nice hard drive) if it is gonna get dumped? Why should anybody else? Far as if it is coming, I'd probably tell my friends it's coming ya sure, but I seriously doubt that all of a sudden sales are gonna split. Right now Apple is losing supporters which is losing sales, which brings about a loss in support, loss in sales, etc. on and on, bit by bit. If folks KNOW for sure the Apple II line is gonna be supported and that it is going to be VIABLE with the market it has to compete against, Amiga, Atari, Laser, cheap-PC's, then support goes up, sales go up, support, sales, etc, on and on! >If the Apple II ever dies, I'd be really surprised. We're not talking about a >machine that sold a few thousand, maybe a hundred thousand or so, and was then >dropped after a couple of years. We're talking about a family that, at the >LAST AppleFest, had an installed base of four and a half MILLION computers. >Nearly one out of every ten Apple computers in the world is a IIgs. RIGHT!! So why don't we se more support for it? Mac's have been coming outa the cracks all over the place. They're shoved into universities as THE only Apple computer for people. A IIc+ with Appleworks and some telecommuncations software could fit a lot of the bill for what I've seen folks working on around here. Apple push that? they even offer to sell it to universities? Does Apple push the II line around the world? Folks over in Europe don't know what a IIgs is. Right here at Purdue I can take just about anybody who knows what a Mac is, show em my IIgs and they go, "Oh, how much Mac software can ya run on it?", "What's better/worse with this then my SE?", etc. They don't even know that the II's and Mac are TOTALLY different lines of computers. Ya tell em it's and Apple and they think, Mac. Why's that I wonder? Could it be because of all the emphasis on Mac's for anything beyond 12th grade? And if there is an installed base of 4.5+mil for the II's then why the hell aren't we seeing some catering to the II's? The Mac's haven't gotten past 4.5+mil already have they? >I think the world would stop rotating before Apple would stop selling any >computer that people want to buy, even if something better is available (the >IIe is still on the price list; schools keep buying 'em). WHOA! You forgot to mention only K-12 schools buy em. *Sarcasm On* The II's after all hardly powerful enough to handle anything for college students! *Sarcasm Off* Buying Apple II computers for K-12 is fine and dandy but what computer does Apple push to college students to TAKE HOME? What computer are college students most likely to get at a college from Apple and subsequently take with them into their professional lives? thus affecting how businesses buy computers. Hmm, looks like a big Mac circle to me. Although I'm sitting here with a IIgs that I could use to help run a business for me, is that something Apple promotes? Last I recall, they were for Home & Education. >Don't say it; I can hear it already: "It doesn't do any good to keep selling >the Apple II if they're not going to make it better." This may or may not >be true; there are a lot of people who'd buy them for the programs already If support wasn't there from the software/hardware community, I'd never get one no matter how many programs are available. >But ignoring that case, "improvements" can come in two areas: >hardware and system software. [....] >go on, but I think you can see that new hardware isn't necessary to make things >a whole lot better. (That doesn't mean I don't *WANT* new hardware [drool].) Right. I'll agree with you, Apple did do a nice job of coming out with GS/OS even if there may be some bugs. And that would seem to indicate to me that they do support it, but I've had this gs for over 2 years now. Do any of the Mac's go for over two years without an upgrade? >So just because you don't see Apple talking about the particular improvements >you want to see, doesn't mean they're not in the works. It doesn't mean they >are, because Apple obviously can't do everything, but it doesn't mean they're >not. When the moment's right, any improvements will be unleashed in all their >gory glory. It's been 2+ years. I think that might be considered a reasonable time to see some improvement and not just in the system disk. Especially with how much development has come out of the Mac line. I'd like to know how much of profit's earmarked for R&D that came from the II line is going straight into the Mac deptartment. With the number of new Mac's that came out, I'd hardly be surprised to see the II money going there. How about funding only the II R&D ONLY? Mac can take care of itself. If faster 65816 are too unreliable then how about investing in Western Digital to get them more reliable? As I recall, Mensch (?) is working on multi-processing computer- on-a-chip type of thing that if finally brought out could really, and finally, allow us II users to really having something to toot our horns about. Gotta keep the IIgs around long enough to use that tho. I hate having Amiga users go around and snicker at me cuz I bought a IIgs. But they have every right to do so. What have I got to brag about in my machine? Only reason I stay is the money I have tied up in my II+&gs and that I believe, although it's damn hard too, that Apple will eventually come out with something better. And that I believe, if it sticks around long enough, Mensch will come out with that chip and revolutionize a 10+ year old machine and make it parallel processing wonder! Everything I'm seeing says this dream might fail. What I'm asking is for some VISIBLE, honest to goodness, can't be mistaken, type of support! I've seen adds for hiring II programmers. That's a good sign. But still, we got 1) an old IIgs, 2) no emphasis on the II's as anything but Home & Education (and not college cuz we all know the II's are to wimpy for college work!), 3) the statement by Sculley back around the end-beginning? of 88-89? that we would see something the II's in 18 months. I'm all for long-term plans but a YEAR AND A HALF? While I'm sitting here for 3+ years (getting along with my IIgs), folk's I know are porting all kinds of UNIX things to the Amiga, Mac, etc. A guy I know is working on an Amiga network with all the goodies like tcp/ip, rlogin,rsh,etc commands, uucp, etc. Why's he doing it and not me for the Apple? Cuz he has support from Commodore for sure, and he's got the power and tools to do it. If I had the tools for doing such a thing, I might, in anticapation of better hardware. But I'd have to buy all the manuals, get into APDA's developer group so I could be aware of the latest stuff (which isn't financially possible for me), etc. devoting a lot of time and energy to do it. I would, except for school right now, but I want to know WITHOUT a doubt that Apple is supporting the II's, that a great IIgs+ will come out (not just one with more tools in ROM, but with speed, flexibility, etc, enhancements), that the II line isn't heading for a Mac/II integration until finally we only have a Mac-type line. I just want to know for sure! It's great to see another Apple employee, Matt here with us, along with Keith and whoever else. It's great to see adds for II programmers. As soon as I get enough experience, etc, I'm gonna be knocking at your door (breaking it down?) trying to get in. But still there's this 2+ year old gs that coulda bought me several Amiga's with all the stuff I have (just extra drives, printer, joystick) that can't even come close to matching the Amiga's performance. I just want some confirmation of my faith in the line. My IIgs is a great POTENTIAL machine. How about a great KINETIC machine now? Kareth. -- NOTE: Not a flame against Macs or their supporters. I love Mac's also. Wish I had one on my desk. But I'll always be an Apple II addict first and foremost! Disclaimer: These opinions are not only mine but of other IIgs owners I know as well.