Path: utzoo!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!mailrus!ames!oliveb!apple!rutgers!njin!princeton!phoenix!jmdoyle From: jmdoyle@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Jennifer Mary Doyle) Newsgroups: news.admin Subject: Re: posting privileges (long, but please read anyway!) Summary: My opinions on the article that started this all Message-ID: <7061@phoenix.Princeton.EDU> Date: 14 Mar 89 05:19:32 GMT References: <7502@pyr.gatech.EDU> Reply-To: jmdoyle@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Jennifer Mary Doyle) Distribution: usa Organization: or, conversely, Chaos: Lines: 120 The fact that this discussion was going on was brought up in soc.college. I subscribed to news.admin, and read every article that had been posted on this subject. I will attempt to respond without repeating points already made and conceded. I apologize for the length of the article. (all excerpts are from the article mentioned below) From: gus@pyr.gatech.EDU (gus Baird) Message-ID: <7502@pyr.gatech.EDU> >But when I take the girls to a meeting where adult discussions >are conducted, they're expected to keep quiet. That's reasonable. >They are not yet able to *contribute* to the discussion, but they >may learn from it. How do they learn from a discussion if they are not allowed to ask questions and to state their opinions? Their question could probably be answered by someone in the discussion, and if not, it will give the person something to think about and learn from. If the opinion of your daughter is based on misinformation, that, too could be corrected. If it is a valid opinion, it can be learned from. Children do not usually sit in on adult discussions unless they are interested. If they are, their contributions will probably be relevant. >We need this net as a forum for adult, often professional, discussion. I concede that the comp.groups are a professional forum, as are the sci and bio groups. Groups in the rec, talk, and soc hierarchies, however, are not. They exist to allow discussion on topics that exist, for the most part, outside the workplace. Anyone with a good contribution to make is welcomed in such places. Knowledgeable points of view on a topic can come from any source, old or young, undergrad, grad, or professional. I believe this also applies to the comp groups. The word you use that bothers me is `adult'. You seem to be implying that if you are not an adult, what you have to say is not important, regardless of whether or not it is correct or relevant. >I must have read news for six months before I posted anything. Working >stiffs tend to be similarly considerate (or timid!) here and in >conversation. They'll usually listen quietly for a while to get the >drift of the dialog and to find what points have already been made, >before putting in their own oars. That's an attribute of an adult. >Undergraduates tend not to act that way. I cannot recall how long I read news before I posted my first article, but I remember that I did not immediately begin to post. Once I felt I knew enough to make a relevant contribution, I posted an article. The more I feel I know about a topic, the more likely I am to post. The longer I read netnews, the more articles I will post. In other words, I read, learn about netiquette and the technical aspects of posting, and gain experience, which is (hopefully) reflected in my articles. I do this because I am mature, not because I am an adult. Maturity can be found in 13 year olds, immaturity can be found in 31 year olds. Age is usually, *but not always*, a measure of maturity. On the net, where you do not see who you are writing to/about, maturity is usually measured by the content of your articles, not your age or academic status. >I suggest that the "powers that be" of the net administration community >should discourage colleges from giving posting privileges to undergraduates, >*as undergraduates*. Wouldn't it be better to give students their "trial period" on the net as undergrads, rather than as grads or professionals? If you make them wait out those 4 years, the drivel they would have posted as a first year student gets posted later, when they are representing a department or a company. Is there anyone who believes an undergrad's views reflect those of a university? This does *not* imply that undergrads should be allowed to post drivel, just that if they do, it will only refelct badly on them. >It's appropriate for a student who is also holding >down a job to post from his "professional" account, but he shouldn't be >let to use his "student" one. What if you have a student who is getting good grades, is involved in campus groups, and is an officer in one of them? They are not holding a job, but they are obviously responsible. Is it fair to say to them "Yes, you appear to be responsible, but we can't give you an account because you have no job?" Many responsible students have not got the time to hold a job, but are just as responsible as those who do. As an aside, in a later article you stated that when you referred to holding down a job, you meant *any* job, not a computer related job. How many non-computer related jobs with computer accounts do undergrads hold? For the majority, there is no such thing as a "professional" account. If you wish them to only use a "professional" account because their job proves them responsible, and they must answer to their boss if they post drivel, you are still not giving a reason why non-job holding undergrads can't post. Offenders must answer for themselves. If they continually post drivel, letters to the postmaster should remove the offender from the net. >More and more sites will be making UNIX and this net available to their >youngsters. The immature portion of tens of thousands of them may soon >be posting articles, drowning out the conversation we expect to carry on. >It would be wise to take steps now to prevent degradation of this forum. In this case, you are using the wrong statistics to make your point. Granted, there are many large universities with tens of thousands of students who have or will have net access. This does not mean they will all immediately open student accounts and overwhelm the net with their drivel. [Disclaimer: All of the following numbers are chosen by me, though I think I percentages about right. In fact, I think I have estimated high in most cases.] Out of 5,000 students, those in departments where a computer account is needed, and perhaps a few hundred others will have accounts. Assume the number is 2000. Of those, maybe 10 percent will read netnews. Possibly 1 percent will post regularly. Assume 10 percent of them post drivel regularly. That number comes out to be *2* students out of 5,000. 2 letters to the postmaster should take care of them. Think about the people you know in your life who you would not want to post. How many of them are likely to have computer accounts, let alone know how to read and post news? If you have gotten this far, thank you for reading this long post. I have said basically all I set out to say, and I have attempted to be clear and non-inflammatory. Respond via email, and I will attempt to answer any disagreements people may have with me with tact and reason. Jennifer Doyle jmdoyle@phoenix.Princeton.EDU P.S. I am 20 years old, and an undergraduate at Princeton University. -- It's nice to know that when the whole world seems crazy, /\ /\ you have friends who make it seem sane in comparison. ||_____|| Jen Princeton `92 jmdoyle@phoenix.princeton.EDU | _ | Disclaimer: I am a student, I represent the future. |__( )__|