Xref: utzoo comp.graphics:5015 comp.std.misc:86 comp.windows.misc:1085 Path: utzoo!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!mailrus!ames!lll-winken!uunet!mcvax!kth!draken!tut!router!fintuvm.bitnet!t8m-kaup From: T8M-KAUP@FINTUVM.BITNET (Asko Kauppi) Newsgroups: comp.graphics,comp.std.misc,comp.terminals.bitgraph,comp.windows.misc Subject: Re: Graphical BBS ? (Summary 2/2) Message-ID: <717T8M-KAUP@FINTUVM> Date: 26 Mar 89 21:33:34 GMT References: <707T8M-KAUP@FINTUVM> Organization: University of Turku, Finland Lines: 417 *** Summary of "GRAPHICAL BBS?" continues... Part II *** ************************************** * * * ABOUT OUR GRAPHIBOX PROJECT ITSELF * * * ************************************** ** DATA STREAMS & INTERNATIONAL CO-OPERATION ** Date: Fri, 17 Mar 89 16:33:37 EET From: Asko Kauppi To: "Andrew Valencia (Seattle)" > I've thought of this too, but never implemented. Make sure it supports >multiple streams (at least two, maybe more) so background file transfers Sure| Actually the protocol allows for *dynamical* stream settings... You can get from 1 to 1.8e19 data streams, each of which can be assigned to *any* task: text, graphics, file transfers... You name it... In general, the best adjective to subscribe the protocol is VERSATILE. Anything is possible, no restrictions... Like it? ;-) >can go on while the user continues to peruse. Multi-screen would also be >convenient. I'd be happy to hack out some of the code, if you want help. >Or be a Beta site, if you'd rather do it all yourself. I don't care who does it if it is done well.. I do trust myself doing nice coding (it'll be in C), but there's no reason I couldn't trust you or any other guy being able to do at least the same. The trouble is with the distances.. It would surely be fascinating to make code with a guy living on the opposite side of the world, but would it work? Would the pieces of code fit together? Wouldn't there be any information-lacks? I've had enough problems doing business with some Englishmen so that I have to take a realistic look at the situation... It can be thought of, though, at least if you really think you would have time and interest in this kind of an activity.. Let's stay in touch, shall we.. By the way, if you *are* serious about becoming a member of the GraphiBox Team, would you please tell more about yourself.. What kind of programming experience do you have and on which systems. The main work would be in C, but some assembly coding might be needed, too. The machines are (for the beginning) IBM-compatibles and Commodore Amigas.. How does that sound? > Good luck in either case! Thanks| We'll need it|| ;-) > vandys%hpisoa1.UUCP@hplabs.hp.com hplabs.hp.com ... Commercial... Hewlett Packard... Laboratories... Tell me more| Do you work for the HP? Doing what? / Asko / = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 31 Date: Fri, 17 Mar 89 08:40:59 pdt From: vandys%hpwsajv%hp-sde.sde.hp.com@RELAY.CS.NET To: Asko Kauppi Asko, Thank you for the quick response. It sounds like your work is right on target--no features appear to be missing. I imagine the interactive sessions will need to take priority over the file transfer ones, which makes it harder to support such a protocol from a larger operating system, as the host can have a hard time finding out how many bytes have made their way out to the user (so that he can implement priority in the first place!) PC-type machines keeps you out of trouble, although PC's run UNIX now, and Amigas will be running UNIX from Commodore soon, so it might not be the non-issue it seems... but it can ceratinly be worried about later. I am a UNIX wizard in HP's UNIX Kernel Lab here in Cupertino, California. Previously I did an international network of terminals for the Research Library Group at Stanford University. This was mostly implemented on PC's running DOS and a custom executive to provide task control, written in Modula-2 and assembly. It was a lot of fun, but between the two I'd still take hacking UNIX! I understand your concerns about coordination. Please keep me posted and I'll be very interested in serving as a Beta site--I can perhaps add some utilities or functions on top of a solid base. Of course, feel free to bounce ideas off of me. Once again, good luck & have lots of fun! Andy Valencia ======================================================================== ** GRAPHIBOX ** Date: Mon, 20 Mar 1989 20:38:34 EET From: Asko Kauppi To: Hans Huebner >It [Macintosh Workstation] concentrates on the Mac interface, so >portabilty is near zero, and it doesn't have any programmer's interface. We *must* have portability. This one is out of the question. >investigate alternatives. I plan to have something useful done until >the end of this year. It's a bit problematic, since such a project is >not normally interesting in money terms 8-( I know what you mean. But *if* you make a break-through, there will be no problems with the financial side... B-) >I've had the plan to do a better BBS interface for two years now. I'd >be interested in some exchange on the topic, especially concerning >standardization and networking. I think a distributed, open I got the idea last summer (1988) and since then, it has been evolving in my head and becoming better and better.. Today, I must say I am quite pleased with the thing. The protocol I've planned is very portable and it doesn't actually give ANY limitations to its usage... The problem is, I don't have proper schematics of it on paper - only lots of notes only I can understand. What I'd need to do is a complete, CLEAR presentation of what I have in mind. You wouldn't have any intuitive 'ideas editor' program, would you. I would be most pleased to exchange ideas with you. There have even been some work offers from Canadian and U.S. people who'd like to contribute to making a graphical BBS come true... Would you think international co-operation had any changes to succeed? The project *could* be devided to smaller sub-projects, which could be solved quite independently... At least if the 'joints' of the modules are specificated well enough. Would you yourself have interest in working in such a team? >application like such a BBS system must be designed to provide some >level of security and protection against virii and other nasty This is a problem of the application, not the communications protocol. At the moment we're only creating a protocol that would allow for fast, yet truly powerful applications, one of them being a graphical bulletin board system. Once we've made that, there would be an unimaginably vast market for all other kinds of applications using the same communications protocol. We're talking of something like the PostScript language, but with lots of added features. Perhaps DisplayPostscript and this plan of ours could have some kind of a connection... >software buggers. It's also important to keep the system as open as >possible. This gives more programmers the opportunity to do software The communications protocol would be in the form of an external C (or C++) library, the functions of which one could easily access from his own programs. >provides PostScript as workstation control language. Unfortunately, a >machine capable of running NeWS costs quite a lot. DisplayPostscript is making its entrance, no doubt about it. You must have heard of NeXT, haven't you... One choice would be to use plain Postscript for the BBS project, too, but there you have to deal with the licence fees for Adobe. And you don't have any animation or sound, which both are part of our system... My greatest concern is the amount of bytes DisplayPostscript needs to draw data on screen. I doubt it would be efficient enough when used by a modem, even at 9600 bps. Ours would, because it's designed to reduce transmitted data's lenght to its minimum. Just try uploading a font to a Postscript printer and you know that one isn't. >I'd be interested in getting some details about your project. Maybe I >can provide some help or we could arrange to coordinate work to get >things going in a compatible fashion. I'm also interested in feedback By all means| About the details, as I said, I first have to get them together in an understandable format. Lots of work... The compatibility idea is nice, but why make many protocols that are compatible with each other when you could manage with only one and various applications that are based on this common language. >you get on your inquiry in the News. Count me as subscriber if you or >somebody else starts a mailing list on the topic. Have to think about it... Of course you'll get all the mail I'll send to the people I've discussed this subject with, but making it a mailing list... Perhaps. >What kind of language do you intend to use as control language ? C or C++, why not? >[Forth is] portable and small enough to run on old-fashioned systems. I don't think Forth would be the best choice. As to the 'old fashioned systems', ours really IS NOT for old fashioned hardware. The *minimum* setup would be something like a PC with a CGA display. The *normal* terminal hardware would be a AT with EGA or an Amiga or an Atari ST or something in the same cathegory. >About me: I have three years of VMS and two years of Unix programming >experience. I program in C and C++. My main fields of interest are >communication, networking and system security. >I'm currently freelancing as a consultant and programmer, searching >for somebody who'll provide the money needed to realise a real good >networking user interface. Cannot guarantee you the money YET, but if the thing gets done... Let's stay in touch.. I think we have lots of ideas to share with each other. I'll try to get my plans on paper as soon as possible and then I'll send them to you, among other people interested in the subject. In a couple of weeks I'll be making a summary of all the replies I've gotten... Thanks for yours| / Asko / ======================================================================== ** VIDEOTEX, TEXT MODE?, WHICH MASCHINES? ETC. ** Date: Fri, 17 Mar 89 15:47:55 EET From: Asko Kauppi To: Chris Bogart >I have seen video screens which might have been using this standard in >JFK airport in New York City, displaying news interspersed with graphical >advertisements. I wish I could tell you more about it. I know the thing: it's called VideoTex as you thought it was, but it is *far* too simple for our ambitions. Making our GraphiComm compatible with the system could be considered, but I doubt it. Anyway, we actually have one videotex expert in our team, so we really do have the info we need. Thanks for the tip, anyway... >I would. I have kicked a less-ambitious version of this idea around in >my head for a long time, but I never had time to do anything about it. I know the feeling| I have been thinking about this since last summer and the ideas have gradually come together to quite a nice package. Now it would be time to really start doing something about it - or leave the whole thing.. Luckily I have some good pals who are also interested in the project, so there is some hope... > One thing I was thinking was that such a system should be accessable to >users without graphics software; that is you *could* use it in a text mode. This is one of the important choices: including text mode would get more people to the system, but it would also bring lots of limitations to the protocol. I think we're doing it only for graphical displays, with the 'standard' screen width being n*320, that is, 640 x-pixels being 'normal'. >A bbs without such a provision might not catch on too well if no local >users had graphics capability. They do have. At least in the 90's they do... > On the other hand, if the special terminal >software you needed wasn't copyrighted, it could be downloaded from other I've planned having a PD-version of the program for 'read-only' purposes, but in order to write messages of your own etc. you'd need a userid or something similar. That you could get by buying the thing.. There is no copy protection, but if one copies his disk to a pal of his, the logon password is copied, too.. Nice protection| ;-) >bbs. I suppose it might even be possible to find a way of adding a module >to some existing terminal software like procomm, although you'd have to jump Procomm I doubt, but Telix with its C-like SALT-language could do the trick... A bit like upgrading a VolksWagen to a Rolls Royce... B-) > > I think this is a fascinating idea that could really become popular if the >software was well written and the standard well thought-out. I have an >IBMPC, and I would love to beta-test this, or help in any other way. Is this >academic work, or as a hobby? And what machine were you planning on writing >it for? Thanks for the moral support| I sure hope a well-written program and a well thought-out protocol are enough - how about a big company backing you up? What comes to beta-testing, that's really far away from now, perhaps in a two year's time... I try to remember... This is not official academic work, even though some of the people involved (including me) do study in the University of Turku (comp. science & physics) - some of our team members are still in Collage (Gymnasium). It's more like a hobby. Which machines? Well... I think IBM-compatibles are so common one cannot overlook them, but I'd like to start developing the thing for the Amiga. Most of our team members HATE that machine, so perhaps we'll start with the PCs.. CGA, EGA, MCGA, VGA, even Hercules will be supported, as well as it's possible... Other (future) versions would be for the Amiga, Atari ST, Apple Machintosh... All the common 16/32-bit home computers.. Unix? I am not familiar with that and they aren't used at homes, but who knows.. > > Good luck, Thanks, we'll need it| / Asko / ======================================================================== ** PROBLEMS ENCOUNTERED ** Date: 20 Mar 89 10:32:16 MEZ (Mon) From: cld%altger.UUCP@tub.BITNET (Claus L. Duerr) Organization: Digital Concepts To : Asko Kauppi hello asko! A friend of mine and I were planning such a project, too, but as we had too much work in the company, we 'forgot' it soon. A little brainstorming about the project brought some problems to the daylight: - transferspeed ... graphix need large data-packets - we need a graphics descriptionlaguage of our own - computer specific terminalprogramm are necessary - lotsa work :-( Finally we came to the result that modems were to slow for our project. Nowa days, with traily modems :-), speed won't be the problem. Oh..must finish... Finally: wot about a mailing-list ? so long claus -- | Claus L. Duerr | "Some programmers have been known to howl at full .. | | Munich | .. moons." - "Only at full moons ?!" | | West-Germany |------------------------------------------------------| | UUCP: ..uunet!unido!altger!cld SUB: ..{altger,doitcr,chiron}!dicon!cld | ======================================================================== ** NOT JUST FOR BBS! ** Date: Fri, 17 Mar 89 17:28:05 EET From: Asko Kauppi To: Don Dwiggins >Sounds like a great idea; I'd like to be kept posted. We run a mix of PCs, >Macs, and various workstations, and would like to set up internal BBSs as >well as having a nice interface to Usenet news. Sure we'll keep you posted.. Gotta make a list of all the people willing to get their copies of our reports.. The idea's been nicely welcomed. Your kind of inside-a-company usage could be quite a market hole for the GraphiBox.. We should take it into account already when planning the project - that is, NOW. Can you think of any *special* needs you have concerning this kind of an information exchange system? Any special applications? Now is the time to make the wishes... :-) For example, how essential is UNIX support? >Don Dwiggins >Ashton-Tate, Inc. Oh boy... Is this *official* Ashton-Tate or just a personal comment of yours? It's nice to get encouraged from such a 'high' level... / Asko / ======================================================================== ** GRAPHIBOX TODAY ** Date: Tue, 21 Mar 89 09:52:16 EET From: Asko Kauppi To: Don Dwiggins Pheeew... That was some list you sent me| I got to think it over - at the moment we're concentrating on finding out whether or not to start the whole project. IF we decide to do it, we'll first concentrate on the communications protocol itself, that is, the way graphics can most economically be transferred from the host to the terminal. Actually that is quite thought out already. The next step would be to actually make the thing work and then to start programming the *applications*, the BBS system as the first one.. Getting that far must take at least a year, depending on the enthusiasm and size of our group (in that order|). After having the basis done, the applications could easily be distributed so that for example we could do the BBS system here in Finland while another group in -say- Germany would program whatever else. You know, I've gotten work offers from all over the world| (well, U.S., Canada & Germany anyway...) Hope we succeed| / Asko / ************************************************************************* * * * I hope you found the messages interesting - if needed, I can send * * you the whole package of all my correspondence about the subject. * * Please state which packing method you would like, if any. * * (I can provide ARCs, PAKs, ZIPs and ZOOs...) * * * ************************************************************************* _____________________________________________________________________ Asko Kauppi alias T8M-KAUP at FINTUVM.BITNET (BitNet MAMMUTTI.UTU.FI (InterNet Student of Physics Turku University addr: Kakskerrantie 176, 20960 Turku, FINLAND Finland tel : +358 (9)21 588 359 / 588 434