Path: utzoo!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!mailrus!csd4.milw.wisc.edu!lll-winken!uunet!mcvax!hp4nl!htsa!fransvo From: fransvo@htsa.uucp (Frans van Otten) Newsgroups: comp.ai Subject: Re: Where might CR understanding come from (if it exists) Message-ID: <819@htsa.uucp> Date: 4 Apr 89 13:22:34 GMT References: <2691@crete.cs.glasgow.ac.uk> <813@htsa.uucp> <448@esosun.UUCP> Reply-To: fransvo@htsa.UUCP (Frans van Otten) Organization: AHA-TMF (Technical Institute), Amsterdam Netherlands Lines: 76 Jerry Jackson writes: >This is a seriously flawed statement of the position. It is not that >carbon "has something" that silicon doesn't -- that would be *stupid*. >What is claimed is that possibly it is not merely functional structure >that determines the mind. The "silicon-based" computers we have are >brain-like only in functional organization (if that :-). Perhaps >consciousness is a *chemical* phenomenon and not a result of a particular >functional structure. I don't understand. First you say that it is stupid to believe that carbon has something that silicon doesn't (sounds sensible to me). Then you claim that having a mind might be some chemical phenomenon rather than an abstract information processing phenomenon. So carbon "has it"; "it" would be certain chemical properties. What is the difference ? [...] >I think most people involved in this argument assume that humans evolved >to their present state. This, however, is beside the point ... Searle >and others are simply arguing that something is left out when one does >so ... Humans have a strange attribute known as subjectivity that doesn't >immediately appear to be reducible to structure or functional organization. >It may even be totally unnecessary for intelligent behavior. If so, though, >it is hard to imagine why such a thing would evolve. I don't think that it is beside the point. Evolving to the present state, including the present brain-organization and mind/consciousness/ etc. is a process which is determined by external behaviour. From the evolution point of view, there is no reason why any subjective experience would exist if it would not have a relationship with "the outside world". But such a relationship does exist: when you experience the subjective feeling that you understand, you behave different then when you don't have that feeling. So I claim that *every* subjective experience is an internal state which (partly) determines the behaviour. Gilbert Cockton writes: >>As the level of complexity of the organism increases, it will have >>to do more "information processing" ... My point: intelligence etc. >>developed out of a need to determine how to behave in order to survive. > >You equate intelligence with a high degree of information processing. >A cheque clearing system does a high degree of information processing. >It must be intelligent then - and AI was achieved 20 years ago? Please see the difference between "many simple tasks, all the same" and "many different and difficult tasks". But yes: AI was invented (at least) 20 years ago. The cheque clearing system you write about does understand how to process a check. [...] >>Gilbert Cockton even claims that because human minds are not artifacts, >>while computer systems always will be, there will always be performance >>differences. Apart from the fact that this statement is nonsense, it >>is not of any importance to AI-research. > >An artefact is designed for a given purpose. As far as the purpose is >concerned, it must be fully understood... mind is not fully understood... >hence we cannot yet build an equivalent artefact until we understand it. So when we understand how the human mind works, we can build a machine which has properties like "consciousness", "understanding" etc. Do you claim that this would not be an artifact (maybe because we didn't design it ourselves, but rather copied it) ? Or would we have built an artifact with a mind ? Then there would be no performance differences... That's all I wanted to say. -- Frans van Otten Algemene Hogeschool Amsterdam Technische en Maritieme Faculteit fransvo@htsa.uucp