Path: utzoo!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!mailrus!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!mcvax!hp4nl!htsa!fransvo
From: fransvo@htsa.uucp (Frans van Otten)
Newsgroups: comp.ai
Subject: Re: Where might CR understanding come from (if it exists)
Message-ID: <826@htsa.uucp>
Date: 7 Apr 89 12:39:14 GMT
References: <820@htsa.uucp> <3674@uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edu>
Reply-To: fransvo@htsa.UUCP (Frans van Otten)
Organization: AHA-TMF (Technical Institute), Amsterdam Netherlands
Lines: 51

Greg Lee writes:

>Frans van Otten writes:
>
>>Humans are conscious.  This is true simply because we state
>>it.  But what do we mean by "conscious" ?
>
>The fact that humans say they are conscious [... can been taken
>as] a fact of human behavior [... or as] a theory.  Taken as a
>fact, it's undeniable.  Taken as a theory [...] it can be wrong.
>I think it is wrong.  But more importantly, I think we can't even
>make sense of these issues, if from the true fact that humans say
>they are conscious, we draw the conclusion that the (or some)
>corresponding theory must be correct.  That's not sensible.  The
>fact is different from the theory; the theory does not follow from
>the fact.

I can't follow you.  What do I mean when I say "I am hungry" ?

  1.  I am in need of food.
  2.  I have a (subjective) feeling that I call "hungry".  This
      feeling has been caused by an empty stomach, or by something
      else.

Taken as (1), it is deniable.  I can have a hungry feeling without
actually needing food.  Taken as (2), it is undeniable:  I *am*
hungry.  Maybe this hungry feeling is caused by something else
then an actual need for food, but I don't say anything about that.

Now when I say "I am conscious", I have a (subjective) feeling which
I call "conscious".  With this statement, I don't say anything about
what might have caused this feeling.  In my article, I stated:

>>Humans are conscious (1).  This is true simply because we state
>>it (2).  But what do we mean by "conscious" (3) ?

Maybe I should have written:

  (1) Humans say they are conscious.
  (2) So they have a subjective feeling which they call "conscious".
  (3) What might this feeling mean, or what might have caused it ?

Then I continued my article trying to answer that question.

So where do we misunderstand eachother ?

-- 
	Frans van Otten
	Algemene Hogeschool Amsterdam
	Technische en Maritieme Faculteit
	fransvo@htsa.uucp