Path: utzoo!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!mailrus!ames!pacbell!att!ihlpb!arm
From: arm@ihlpb.ATT.COM (Macalalad)
Newsgroups: comp.ai
Subject: Re: Simulation verus reality
Message-ID: <10182@ihlpb.ATT.COM>
Date: 10 Apr 89 19:27:19 GMT
References: <827@htsa.uucp>
Reply-To: arm@ihlpb.UUCP (55528-Macalalad,A.R.)
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories - Naperville, Illinois
Lines: 39

In article <827@htsa.uucp> fransvo@htsa.UUCP (Frans van Otten) writes:
>A lot of comp.ai writers seem to misunderstand the difference between
>"reality" and "simulation".  Actually, both words are pointers to some
>actual process, which has no name, I'm afraid.  Reality and simulation
>are "relativity" concepts.

I always thought of those "actual processes" AS REALITY.  Whose concept
of relativity are you using?

>When we simulate a flying plain, it is (within the simulator) really
>flying (in so far as the simulator simulates flying).  To us, it is a
>simulation of a flying plane.  That is, in our reality the plane does
>not fly, but in the reality inside the simulator it does fly !

No, there is only ONE reality, not many separate realities.  The concept
behind relativity is that the MEASUREMENTS taken of reality, such as
time and distance, are relative to the observer.  This is quite different
from claiming that each observer is taking measurements of a different
reality.

Thus, it doesn't even make sense to talk of a separate reality within
a simulator.  Where is the observer within the simulator?  All of the
measuring and collapsing of quantum states take place at our level,
not the simulated level.

Sure, we can redefine what we mean by flying to encompass the concept
of flying on the simulator level, but remember that we are still talking
about two different concepts of flying.  (I think you do acknowledge as
much implicitly in your discussion of two "realities.")  Putting two
concepts under the same label does not make them the same.

I think that strong AI is making a stronger claim: to create an
intelligent machine not in some "simulated reality" but in our reality,
fully interacting with us and our environment.

We may be in the grips of an ideology, but let's not lose our grip
on reality.

-Alex