Path: utzoo!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!mailrus!ukma!rutgers!mcnc!ecsvax!uunet.UU.NET From: mcvax!cgch!warw@uunet.UU.NET (Anthony R. Wuersch) Newsgroups: comp.society.women Subject: Re: Women on the Net Message-ID: <6813@ecsvax.UUCP> Date: 3 Apr 89 19:38:31 GMT Sender: skyler@ecsvax.UUCP Lines: 123 Approved: skyler@ecsvax.uncecs.edu (Moderator -- Trish Roberts) Comments-to: comp-women-request@cs.purdue.edu Submissions-to: comp-women@cs.purdue.edu gds@spam.istc.sri.com (Greg Skinner) writes: > The thing that is bothering me in this thread of discussion is the > fact that being a hacker is looked upon as some socially undesirable > thing. This is a view portrayed by the media that casts hackers in a > highly unfavorable light. Hackers are not the one-dimensional beings > that the movies and TV would have us believe. Is the US image of hackers really so negative? What shaped it so? Did Sherry Turkle go on Nightline? Maybe someone could send me e-mail and explain it. I'm second-generation American (parents from Switzerland), but out of the US since '86. I've worked in Switzerland in computing since '86, and now work primarily with Swiss and Germans. I know no US popular idea of a hacker. I don't recall any public image of hackers from before I left the US other than Matthew Broderick showing off his hacks to a girlfriend in *War Games*. Hardly asocial. Nor undesirable. The Federal Republic of Germany has many hackers, some more newsworthy than in the US. The FRG Chaos Computer Club has published two books on its history and political philosophy. A group of hackers (unrelated to the Club) will soon go on trial for espionage. Articles say the hacker spies needed money for their coke habits. Big coke habits don't fit a US hacker stereotype. They suggest an intense social life. I've read *nothing* about German hackers or "computer freaks" which suggests an unhappy or different or outsider adolescence. A good rule to follow in a second culture is to value what people tell you over your own intuition. So I directly asked some people here if the US image of hackers and scientific people as social outsiders sounds right to them. I got queasy asking this question. People gave me astounded looks, made me rephrase it ten different ways, then asked me am I serious, is this *really* what I'm asking?? Am I joking? Even more disturbing --- do I really believe this myself? Going into science because one feels like an outsider is plainly and simply *ridiculous*, here. No one's heard of the idea before. Perhaps the idea is just as unusual in other European countries. Toni Wuersch ( warw@cgch.UUCP , mcvax!cernvax!cgch!warw ) By the way, a typical hacker behavior in the US --- *very* heavy use of electronic mail and news networks --- is reproduced in France on a larger scale by screen networks supported by the French PTT. Their biggest load is sex talk. Switzerland's PTT started a similar experiment recently. Same result. -------------- End of first article ------------------- -------------- Begin of second article ---------------- Usually I try very hard to stay factual. But sometimes I see something that is so *representative* and *well-meaning* and *misguided* that I blow my top. I have no disagreement with the author as a person, just with the words. One could interpret them as lending passive support to some disgusting and obnoxious causes. As Milton said, "He also serves who only stands and waits." gds@spam.istc.sri.com (Greg Skinner) writes: >In my opinion, what sets computer hackers apart from people who use >computers for their job or research is that they really have fun with >them, enough so that they choose to spend time interacting with them >whereas other people would do other things. Absolutely right! Now I thought the next sentence would be "So what?" or "Isn't it sad how they get persecuted for having fun?" A good close to a timely and good article. Instead: >Perhaps they are not as socially interactive as other people but it is >up to them. As long as they are not being self-destructive or destructive >to others I don't see what is so bad about what they are doing. I could not be so bland. That sounds like abandonment. People are being blackballed and attacked; others are learning the wrong lesson from their adjustment, namely that persecution works. Don't you think it's revolting how hackers and so *many* other US people get persecuted for achieving and leading creative lives? Isn't there bigotry both in the condemnation and in its acceptance? Why do people take media witchhunts seriously? Why do people take part in witchhunts, but deny that this is just what they are doing? What is happening today in the US with regard to hackers and people who enjoy computing in general is a pure witchhunt. Hackers stomp on the flag by interrupting ARPA, and they could let the Russians win if they look into NASA. Total junk. Even the *NSA* will tell you so, when asked point-blank. Hackers also played a role in the *making* of ARPA. Prudent young people will avoid a deep plunge into computers because they heard that a right-wing demogogic label will mark them as a freak. Unless enough people say this is junk and stick to their resistance. If it's true that scientific people in high school cower in their science clubs, then they should either start a social committee for some partys or reconsider their sexual preference. We should help them do so. That means defending them, giving them sanctuary, intervening in their behalf. When you see junk, tell people it's junk. Don't accept it or adapt to it. Junk is heroin. A good dictionary will tell you this. Again, I apologize for my strong reaction and want to emphasize that I liked and agreed with most of Greg's article. Toni Wuersch ( warw@cgch.UUCP , mcvax!cernvax!cgch!warw )