Path: utzoo!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!mailrus!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!rutgers!apple!bbn!oberon!pollux.usc.edu!papa From: papa@pollux.usc.edu (Marco Papa) Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga Subject: Re: Used DPAINT [I & II] for sale Message-ID: <16459@oberon.USC.EDU> Date: 11 Apr 89 06:35:30 GMT References: <16386@oberon.USC.EDU> <6789@ecsvax.UUCP> <16404@oberon.USC.EDU> <16958@cup.portal.com> Sender: news@oberon.USC.EDU Reply-To: papa@pollux.usc.edu (Marco Papa) Followup-To: /dev/null Distribution: usa Organization: Felsina Software, Los Angeles, CA Lines: 111 In article <16958@cup.portal.com> thad@cup.portal.com (Thad P Floryan) writes: >Though this discussion belongs in comp.legal , Marco is dead > > W R O N G > >with his statements regarding software licensing. Licensing? I guess you don't have either Dpaint I, II or III. If you did, you'd know that neither one comes with a "software license". Not even a "shrink-wrap" license. As such, by buying it, I have not agreed NOT to resell the ORIGINAL. You should also know that Dpaint II is NOT the same as Dpaint III. They are TWO separate products, which currently you can find at dealers at a very different price. As such, I did not get an UPGRADE to Dpaint II when I bought Dpaint III. I got a DISCOUNT on a different product. None of the EA products I have comes with a licensing agreement (I have F18 Interceptor that also comes without a license]. As such I can do WHATEVER I want with them, AS LONG AS I don't violate copyright laws. As I can resell and original book, a record, or a CD, I can resell my original DPaint II. >Software is (properly?) treated as intellectual property, NOT physical property >hence the licensing. >When you buy a car and receive title (after paying it off, etc.), you OWN the >car and can do whatever you want with it. Only ONE copy of that car exists. >When you license software, you are paying for the right to use the software; >the author retains copyright and legally can prevent you from patching it, >disassembling it, using other parts of it, etc. Everybody knows that. But you're evading the subject: which is reselling original software, NOT COPIES. >As you know, software CAN be easily copied. This is totally off the subject. RESELLING ORIGINAL SOFTWARE is the subject. >Selling off "old" copies of licensed software that one has upgraded is illegal ^^^^^^ >in every state in the USA. In practice, the legality is seldom challenged in >the courts. We are not talking about COPIES. We are talking about *ORIGINALS*! Well, it looks like the software publishers themselves disagree with you. These are excepts from the first 4 "shrink-wrap" licenses that I picked up from my software library (these are all from MAJOR Amiga Software publishers): 1. Excerpted from AEGIS' SONIX license: "You may transfer and license the program to another party if the other party agrees to the terms and conditions of the Agreement ... If you transfer the program you must at the same time transfer the documentation and backup copy or transfer the documentation and destroy the backup copy". [All of Aegis' products have a license that includes this clause]. 2. Excerpted from Lattice's Lattice C license: "You must treat this software like a book. ... Just as a book cannot be read by two people, in two places, at the same time, neither can the software be used by other persons, in other places, at the same time". [This type of license, software == book, has been widely used since Borland first introduced it with Turbo Pascal. As one can resell books, one can resell original software]. 3. Excerpted from MANX's AZTEC C license: "Customer may not transfer any copy of the Software to another person, unless Customer transfers all copies, including the Original, and advises MANX of the name and address of that person, who must sign a copy of the registration card, pay a transfer fee, and agree to the terms of the license." 4. Excerpted from WPCORP's WordPerfect's license: "You may transfer your right to use the program to another party, which terminates your license." And these are just the first 4 I picked up at random. >Suggest you seek competent cousel before the SPA (Software Publishers' >Association) comes after you. :-) Well, my lawyer is currently the President of the US-Asian Assoc. of Software Lawyers, which is trying to curb Asian Piracy. He is a very well known litigator on computer copyrights and licenses. His fees are not cheap: I pay him $250/hour :-( You should also know that, notwidthstanding what a "shrink-wrap" license says in the "agreement", so far nobody has put these licenses through the court's process. And this is for a very simple reason. Most lawyers will tell you that "shrink-wrap" licenses, if tried in court, are likely to be declared illegal, and therefore are not worth the interest of lawyers (i.e. $$$). So far, the only lawsuits that have been filed involving software have been for copyright infringment [since here the laws are a little clearer and the body of court decisions is pretty extensive], or for breach of SIGNED licensing agreements; none for violation of a "shrink-wrap" licensing agreement. It is of this week the news that Ashton-Tate and Lotus have filed copyright infringent against a very well known Italian company that allegedly has been copying disks internally. Note that they filed for copyright infringment, not for violation of a shrink-wrap license. I guess you should talk to you lawyer (if you have one) a little more often, and also read the fine print included in the software licenses. It pays. Since I don't think the above will change your mind and also since the subject really does not belong here, this is my last line on the subject. Replies will be forwarded to /dev/null. -- Marco Papa 'Doc' -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= uucp:...!pollux!papa BIX:papa ARPAnet:pollux!papa@oberon.usc.edu "There's Alpha, Beta, Gamma and Diga!" -- Leo Schwab [quoting Rick Unland] -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=