Path: utzoo!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!mailrus!ames!ig!bionet!csd4.milw.wisc.edu!lll-winken!uunet!aussie!rex From: rex@aussie.UUCP (Rex Jaeschke) Newsgroups: comp.std.c Subject: Re: New US Rep to ISO C Message-ID: <8.UUL1.3#5077@aussie.UUCP> Date: 25 Apr 89 21:15:28 GMT References: <2663@buengc.BU.EDU> Organization: Journal of C Language Translation Lines: 133 > You mention that the Danes are unimpressed with trigraphs, and that > the UK want the unspecified specifications to be specified to be > unspecified (and I thought I'd stopped joking...well, I have...), so, my > question is, > > Just how much input have foreign countries had in the _A_NSI spec? Anyone from anywhere in the world can attend and participate in ANSI standard meetings. However, you can only vote if you are a fully paid voting member or registered alternate. Voting members are not restricted to US citizens/residents/companies as many people believe. Since my involment in ANSI C (late '84) the regular non-US particpants have been HCR from Toronto (who also supplied the Canadian rep to ISO), IBM (much of their C work is in Don Mills, Ontario) and ICL, the UK's national computer manufacturer. ICL's principal rep is also VERY active in X/OPEN and POSIX (there is also an ISO POSIX group now.) Other nationals provided input on an ad-hoc basis either by attending or via public comment period or e-mail. (Mark Brader comes to mind as does Univ. of Waterloo, who both provided many, many useful changes and additions.) Once we decided to add support for western European character sets via locales the Europeans took quite some interest as did the Japanese who thought it would be nice if we could help them out as well. Hence, the multibyte package was invented. Much of the international interest in these areas was generated through P.J. Plauger's efforts. His company Whitesmiths (now sold to Intermetrics) has an international group of affiliates who, for the most part, are the main or only C vendor "in town." They are very strong in Japan, France and Australia, among other countries. So his affiliates and their customers provided feedback which Plauger collated, distilled and proposed. In his trips to Japan he addressed the Japan C Committee. Also, around this time he took over convenership of ISO C when Steve Hersee resigned (when Lattice was aquired by SAS.) As such, Plauger played a much bigger role in getting the international community involved. He, along with X3J11 and most ISO members quickly agreed that it would be best if ANSI and ISO standards were one and the same. That's why we slipped back probably two years to add the locale and multibyte stuff. I believe that the early interest in non-English environments probably arose because an increasing number of US venders were selling or were interested to sell to Asian and European markets. Then once ISO got involved it made good political sense. Also, doing non-trivial technical standards at the ISO level is difficult and expensive. Meetings are conducted in English (few attendee's first language), voting is done by consensus not majority, and travel is often more expensive and much fewer people would participate. > I'm not being chauvinistic, I just find it odd that ANSI is handling any > considerations in deference to other nations. It seems that such things > would be better served by writing an ISO spec for C. Consider also that > the Danish trigraph complaint is mediated by their reliance on an ISO > character set that forces them to use the dreaded things. I realize that > it's likely that C is protected by some form of technology-export > restriction, but that raises the paradox of "why trigraph to please > foreigners if they ain't s'posed to have it?" Pretty much all national standards bodies are affiliated with ISO and they all agree to not form national standards that violate/preclude, etc., other national interests. That is, all ANSI standards are almost "required" to recognize the existance of character sets such as ISO-646. Also, from ISO's point of view, once ISO convenes a standards working group, any national standard effort already in progress is then considered being done on ISO's behalf. That is, for the last several years all of X3J11's efforts have really been on behalf of the international community. Simply stated, the US has been the caretaker of what was really an international standard even if no ISO working group existed. So the notion that the American National Standards Association (ANSI) is simply for the US alone, is quite wrong. In many cases, ANSI standards are adopted in toto by ISO (or other national standards groups like UK's BSI) or are only slightly extended. To the best of my knowledge there is no restraint on shipping language technology out of the country. Certainly, the Soviet Embassy can buy a copy of Microsoft or Turbo C and ship it out of the country. Of course, reverse engineering it is more difficuly but why bother. Let Borland maintain it and get a copy of the next release and make 1,000 pirated copies within the USSR. Getting s/w for VAX, IBM mainframes etc., is not so simple. Plus you should understand the the Soviet Union is a member of ISO. In fact, to the best of my knowledge, the three official languages of ISO publications are English, French and Russian. Of course, the Russians do their own translation and are glad to since they are getting all the good information. ISO has no political boundaries and I don't see that ANSI does either since we allow non-US voting members. Heck, the Soviet block is probably monitoring this newsfeed. (As a side note, the DEC Professional, of which I amd C Editor, received notification from a Soviet technical journal that it had translated some of my articles and they sent me copies of the abstracts, in Russian.) ISO meetings are more like state department summits - it's often more diplomacy than technical substance. And since ANSI did most of the technical work the US reps quite often have to go on the defensive to explain why they did what they did. In my three ISO meeings (Paris, Amsterdam and London) I have felt a hint from a few members of "here the come the Americans riding rough shod over us trying to impose THEIR solution on us." I have certainly never felt that way. Interestingly, I'm Australian-born having been in the US only 10 years. But I guess I'm guilty by association. Actually, I understand the Japanese are ecstatic with our efforts - we did more than they ever expected. > So, my next question is, when is the ISO C committee forming, and how > many boxtops from Kernighan and Ritchie's Sugar Coated C Structs do I > have to submit to become a member? ISO/TC97/SC22/WG14 otherwise known as the ISO Working Group for C, first met in Chicago in mid-'86 I think, with Hersee as convener. It has met approximately every 6 months since having joint meetings with ANSI X3J11 in Paris 1987 and Seattle last week. I'm not sure how one joins or why you would want to. First a country nominates a primary and alternate representative who actual can vote. Meeting attendence is not compulsory to vote (it is in ANSI) so most countries that vote never attend and vote by letter ballot. The average ISO C meeting (without joint ANSI) is 5-8 people representing perhaps 5 countries. The meetings last for 1- 1 1/2 days. The mailings are very small and few substantive technical issues get resolved there. And, I believe, all significant ISO documents are included in ANSI C mailings. So if you are a paid-up X3J11 voting member (not observer) you should get all such mailings anyway. Rex ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Rex Jaeschke | C Users Journal | Journal of C Language Translation (703) 860-0091 | DEC PROFESSIONAL |1810 Michael Faraday Drive, Suite 101 uunet!aussie!rex | Programmers Journal | Reston, Virginia 22090, USA ----------------------------------------------------------------------------