Path: utzoo!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!mailrus!ames!hc!lanl!lambda!roberts From: roberts@studguppy.lanl.gov (Doug Roberts) Newsgroups: comp.lang.lisp Subject: Re: Unix Lisp Environments (why the slow evolution) Message-ID: Date: 4 May 89 23:36:15 GMT References: <7802@zodiac.UUCP> Sender: news@lanl.gov Organization: Los Alamos National Laboratory Lines: 95 In-reply-to: jdye@zodiac.ADS.COM's message of 4 May 89 22:32:46 GMT In article <7802@zodiac.UUCP> jdye@zodiac.ADS.COM (John W. Dye Jr.) writes: > > On the subject of Lisp Environments for Unix (SUN) workstations. > > As a former Lispm user who presently is a Sun common-lisp hacker > I would like to make a few observations about the state and > evolution of lisp environments for Unix workstations. Hopefully > these comments will spark constructive discussion about what > we can do to speed the arrival of good lisp based programming environments. > > 1) There is not much of a market for Lisp based products (compared to > C or (UGH) Fortran). This is the reason that companies cannot afford > to devote amazing amounts of resources to bring lisp based programming > environments to market. > > 2) The window systems keep changing. First there was sunview. Then there > were X and NeWS. Now there is (soon) a NeWS/X merge (with suntools > support also). Developers of lisp programming environments have had > to program on a moving target (the window systems). Unfortunately, > most of the neat stuff that lisp programming environments do are > window based (window-debuggers, fancy editors). > > 3) Finally, Emacs isnt that bad. It's programmable, and with the > right set of hacks and tags tables it begins to approximate the > typical symbolics compile-test-debug cycle that we are all so > familiar with. > > > The biggest problem we still face is debugging a multiprocessing lisp > using emacs only (we dont like sunview--OK!). It would be nice to have > a facility like the lucid editor provides in good old gnu emacs. > > What can we do about it??? > > We could all get together and agree on a window-system platform and > then build the gnu-lisp environment out of it!! > > We can wait for Sun,Lucid,Franz, etc to supply us with one > (see point 1). > > P.S. I am encouraged by the state of Lisp and its direction. I forsee > people actually delivering software that runs in lisp in the next 3-5 > years. > You make some good points, especially the one regarding the small market share of LISP. I think, however, that you missed one of the major reasons that the Unix LISP environment is still decidedly inferior to a LISPm: the majority of the market that is considering LISP as a language in which to deliver applications is currently a member of either the Unix or the VMS community: _they are not aware of the productivity that exists ion a LISPm_. Nor _will_ most of them become aware, given the cost disparity between LISPm hardware and the other workstations. What can we do about it? Complain, for one thing. I know that the major vendors listen to this forum (over the past two years I've received feedback from a number of the major software and hardware vendors to comments made here). I believe that some fruit has already been born, in part because of comments made to this list. Assisting to the extent possible in establishing a standard window system will also help, of course. Regarding your P.S., we have been delivering LISP applications to our customers for two years now. --Doug -- =============================================================== Douglas Roberts Los Alamos National Laboratory Box 1663, MS F-602 Los Alamos, New Mexico 87545 (505)667-4569 dzzr@lanl.gov ===============================================================