Path: utzoo!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!mailrus!sharkey!itivax!vax3!scs
From: scs@vax3.iti.org (Steve Simmons)
Newsgroups: comp.mail.elm
Subject: Re: Behavior of ' ' considered inconsistant
Summary: 'Natural' order is what the user has defined
Message-ID: <1114@itivax.iti.org>
Date: 9 May 89 14:41:19 GMT
References: <1415@lokkur.UUCP> <5222@pbhyf.PacBell.COM>
Sender: news@itivax.iti.org
Reply-To: scs@vax3.iti.org (Steve Simmons)
Organization: Industrial Technology Institute
Lines: 54

In article <5222@pbhyf.PacBell.COM> rob@PacBell.COM (Rob Bernardo) writes:
>In article <1415@lokkur.UUCP> scs@lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons) writes:
>+But if you
>+have the order reversed (newest is 1, oldest is max) using the space
>+bar to navigate thru messages does the opposite of what you want.  For
>                                                   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>The "logic" here is that the sort criteria change the numbering and
>ordering of messages as displayed by elm.  Obviously, as Steve points
>out, this governs the index screen.  However, Steve is suggesting that
>it *not* govern the movement from one message to the next while in
>"pager mode" (i.e.  when you display a sequence of messages without
>returning to the index screen).

Right, that's what I'm suggesting.  You nailed it more clearly than
I did.

>I see a problem with Steve's suggestion. He suggests that ' ' in pager
>mode follow traverse the messages in the "natural" order if your sort sequence
>is reverse-date-sent or  reverse-date-received (he didn't say which). Does
>Steve mean they should be traversed in mailbox order or does he
>mean they should be traversed in date-sent (or date-received order)?

'Natural' order is a pretty slippery term here.  One of the neat
features of elm is it lets you define what you want the ordering
to be.  Want mailbox order?   You got it.  Want by date sent?  You
got it.  Want those reversed?  You got it.  Better for our discussion
if we call it "user-selected order".  Now we can define the request
to be:

When at the end of a displayed message, the ' ' command intuitively
means 'go to the next message' rather than return to index page.
What message is  'next' is determined by the ordering criteria set
by the user, with 'reversed' setting going to lower message numbers
and 'normal' settings going to higher message numbers.

>If the latter, what do we do when someone chooses to sort by subject,
>or reverse-subject, or one of the other sort modes?

My reasoning: When a user selects a sorting criteria I feel he is
requesting the order for both the display *and* the accessing of
messages.  I could be wrong on this, one user has already disagreed.
For some curious reason users at ITI tend to use elm the way I show
them, which often includes grabbing a copy of my .elmrc. :-)  If
other folks disagree I'll happily sit down and shut up.

>My $.02.
>Rob Bernardo, Pacific Bell UNIX/C Reusable Code Library

Cheap at many times the price.

   Steve Simmons         Just another midwestern boy
   scs@vax3.iti.org  -- or -- ...!sharkey!itivax!scs
         "Hey...you *can* get here from here!"