Path: utzoo!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!rutgers!sun-barr!sun!regenmeister!chrisp From: chrisp@regenmeister.uucp (Chris Prael) Newsgroups: comp.software-eng Subject: Re: What exactly is a software engineer ? Message-ID: <33812@regenmeister.uucp> Date: 25 May 89 23:29:12 GMT References: <5596@hubcap.clemson.edu> Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc. - Mtn View, CA Lines: 85 From article <5596@hubcap.clemson.edu>, by billwolf%hazel.cs.clemson.edu@hubcap.clemson.edu (William Thomas Wolfe,2847,): > From article , by cline@sunshine.ece.clarkson.edu (Marshall Cline): >In article <5004@goofy.megatest.UUCP> djones@megatest.UUCP (Dave Jones) writes: >>From article <3359@ae.sei.cmu.edu>, by rsd@sei.cmu.edu (Richard S D'Ippolito): >>> In article <40386@think.UUCP> Franklin A Davis brings up certain points that Gentlemen, I am going to throw stones all over the placew here. I hope I don't offend too many of you. >>>>...Fortunately the real world is often a good >>>>teacher, so people with CS degrees (or no degree at all) become >>>>proficient engineers with experience. In my observation, most people with CS degrees have come out of school thinking like a technician. While they may eventually may become very experienced technicians, they rarely make the transition to engineer. >>>I find it difficult to believe that one can acquire enough knowledge of a >>>technical field without the benefit of a formal period of study of the This assertion presupposes that there IS a formal course of study in the engineering of software. It appears to me that there is not. Most of the people who really become software engineers, do so through the apprenticeship route (informal). >>Gimme a break. College is not magic and professors are not magicians. Nor are most of the people in industry. >AGREE! The idea that coursework is _necessary_ for learning is LUDICROUS! >Coursework isn't even _sufficient_ for learning! Bravo! Well said! >However: Raw, Hard, Industry Experience seems to show that teaching Computer >Scientists how to be an Engineer is harder than teaching an Engineer how to >program. The point is not that Engineering _coursework_ is required, as much >as the whole _mentality_ that is developed over time when trained (formally >or informally) as an Engineer. Again, well said. My experience has been that it is easier to train a person with a degree is math or english with a couple of course hours in programming to be an engineer than it is to train a person with a CS degree. The latter has generally required untraining first. There have been exceptions: a young woman with a MSCS who was a real artist in C. >High Tech job opportunities invariably list Education Requirements. Most managers (even with "programming" experience) are so short in knowlege that they are forced to rely on credentials. > Actually, that article states (CACM, May '89, page 596): > > "[...] many software development practitioners believe it is > easier to teach programming to an engineer than it is to teach > engineering to a programmer. That is because engineering is a disciplined sequence of behaviors that result in a product. The product may be inspired or pedestrian, but it generally performs the intended function safely and effectively. Note that all forms of engineering deal in two processes: the process of building and the process of function. For example, the purpose of a gasoline engine is the process of converting energy stored in the gas to rotational energy at the fly wheel. Programming is simply building abstract artifacts from an abstract class of nuts and bolts using abstract wrenches and screwdrivers. > The SEI Education Program has > been repeatedly asked for recommended undergraduate software > engineering degree requirements. We resist by arguing that > the best education remains a solid major in computer science I question the solidity of a major in CS. > followed by graduate professional education such as an MSE > (Master's in Software Engineering) program." I also question the assertion that a graduate education is professional in nature. These kids are mechanics when they get to us, not engineers. > Not all universities require software engineering of BSCS candidates, > but the winds of change are blowing. Until then, industry can > accelerate the trend by concentrating their undergraduate recruiting > efforts on the universities which deliver "a solid major in computer > science" which includes significant software engineering coursework, Industry is also filled with mechanics. They don't genreally know what to insist on! The final point. How did I get to be such a know-it-all? I was trained by a master twenty odd years ago. Who trained him, I really don't know. If you want to learn how to train software engineers, go get Warner King out of IBM and have him teach you how he does it. Chris Prael