Path: utzoo!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!rutgers!sun-barr!sun!regenmeister!chrisp
From: chrisp@regenmeister.uucp (Chris Prael)
Newsgroups: comp.software-eng
Subject: Re: Engineers are just as much in the dark as programmers.
Message-ID: <33816@regenmeister.uucp>
Date: 28 May 89 00:33:29 GMT
References: <24857@agate.BERKELEY.EDU>
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc. - Mtn View, CA
Lines: 40

From article <24857@agate.BERKELEY.EDU>, by bks@ALFA.berkeley.edu (Brad Sherman):
> Come off it you guys.  "Real" engineers screw up just like we programmers.
> O-rings fail, new cars are recalled, helicopters crash, chunks fall off
> of jet airliners, windows pop out of high-rise buildings, new bridges
> collapse, structs crack, pipes burst, freeways are jammed upon completion,
> printed circuit boards have suspicious little wires soldered here and there.
> 
> The big difference, as far as I can tell, is that the educational and
> certification systems for older engineering disciplines keep out more

Which simply shows that you, like many in our field, are seriously 
under-informed about how real engineers function.  Yes, failures 
do happen in the conventional engineering fields.  And, usually, 
when the failure is investigated (another big difference) the failure is traced to unprofessional conduct: procedures ignored, 
specifications not written or ignored, covering up, etc.  Just like 
in the programming projects that go bust!

> Good engineering is done by good engineers.  Good software is 
> produced by good programmers.  The problem for software projects is
> that there are not enough good experienced programmers and therefore
> there are not enough good experienced programming managers.

My experience is that, in the South Bay Area anyway, it is very rare 
for competent programmers to rise to managerial positions in 
software.  More often it is the unprofessional muck-ups who become 
managers.  A competent professional scares the pants off these jerks.

> I know what a programmer is.  I almost understand what software-engineering
> is.

Until you know what software-engineering is, you will not know
what (or who) a competent programmer is.

>  Computer Science seems  just as valid as, say, Political Science
> and more valid than Economics.  

Interesting choice.  How is it that you find Political Science
more valid than Economics?

Chris Prael