Path: utzoo!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!mailrus!uflorida!gatech!hubcap!ncrcae!PEDEV!rogerson
From: rogerson@PEDEV.Columbia.NCR.COM (Dale Rogerson)
Newsgroups: comp.windows.ms
Subject: Re: Microsoft OnLine
Keywords: OnLine
Message-ID: <2529@PEDEV.Columbia.NCR.COM>
Date: 23 May 89 17:52:11 GMT
References: <1247@netxcom.UUCP> <5743@microsoft.UUCP> <26787@mirror.UUCP>
Reply-To: rogerson@PEDEV.Columbia.NCR.COM (Dale Rogerson)
Organization: NCR Corp., Engineering & Manufacturing - Columbia, SC
Lines: 153


After a comment that I had made concerning the Pre-release program for
Windows 3.0 and my feelings concerning Microsoft Online I received a
message from Robert B. Hess of Microsoft Corp.  Mr. Hess wanted my
input into what I felt was wrong with Online and MS support in general.
Following is part of the reply I sent to Mr. Hess.  Again, I would
like to thank Mr. Hess and the other Microsoft employees who read this
newsgroup.  Maybe in the future Microsoft will reward you for taking the
time to answer our questions.

[ I had added a little clarification to my original letter in brackets
like this. -DER ]

=======================================================================\

Yes, I know that some Microsoft employees read comp.windows.ms, but as
you said, on THEIR own time.  No, one is *officially* responsible for
answering the questions on the net.  (I would like to thank you for helping
us out on your own time!)  With the amount of traffic and number of 
developers on this net, Microsoft needs to have an official presense here.
Most Windows developers do not have a favorable attitude to Microsoft
Support. They feel like this:

	Developer: "I paid $1000 for tools to develope applications for an
		   environment which the market has not yet accepted.  I am
		   sticking my neck out and spending the time to learn how
		   to program for an environment which may not catch on.  I
		   need some help."
        Microsoft: "Sure we can help you if you pay us lots of money.
		   If you don't have the money too bad.  We domanate the PC
		   operating system market and sooner or later someone will
		   write programs for our environments."

I know that this is extreme, but this is the way many developers feel.  I
really like Windows; it has a lot of promise. (In fact, I am really amazed
that it was possible to get a multitasking, virtual memory sytem running on
a 8086.)  Everytime a developer complains about Windows support I get kind
of defensive as if it was my own product. 

I have not subscribed to Online (and neither has the local NCR Windows group)
because it is just plain too expensive.  $495 for only 1 year and 12 hours of
connect time.  This is not much time at all and a lot of money for us
"home programmers."  Maybe if it was FREE access for ALL developers to the
question database, and then a charge for SPECIFIC questions that must be
answered QUICKLY, I would like it better. [ In other words, let everyone read
the answer, but maybe charge those people who need the answer now, today, right
this second. - DER ] I know support costs alot of 
money, but with better support come better applications which sale more
versions of Windows and once you have one Windows program you want more so
chalk up more sales of Excel and Word for Windows (wherever that is).
If the support was better, it would pay for itself.  

The second reason I have not subscribed to Online is because I have not seen onegood review of its services.  Most developers say the information is vague and
not very helpful.  Some say that the price is more than fair for the service,
IF they got useful answer which they did not.  I know that answering other
peoples programming problems is hard, especially with an environment like
Windows, but I have not heard any complains about Apple's fantastic support
program except for the *new* yearly charge.  However, Apple is in a position
where it can charge for the support. 

Even the developers support on GEnie is rather weak.  Most questions are
still answered by other developers and not by anyone at Microsoft.  The
official Microsoft line is "I don't know.", "I have not worked with DDE." and
"It will be fixed in a later version."  Also the information availiable in
the knowledgebase is also rather pathetic not to mention expensive at $5 an
hour over GEnie time.  A co-worker just told me he was trying to find
information in the knowledge base and he found a bunch of UNANSWERED questions!
Also he asked a question and was told by an MS person, you can not do that. This
message was followed by someone else who told him how to do it. This person was
not an MS representative.

The GEnie support for the USER seems to be alot
better.  I find it nice to be able to take to the people who handle upgrades.
It also is easier to send in mistakes that I find in the documentation.
[ On normal user programs, such as Word, Microsoft seems to do a much better
job.  Of course supporting an application is easier than supporting 
programmers. Part of the problem is that you are treating programmers as 
normal users.  Give us some credit for intelligence.  WE CAN INSTALL PATCHES.
We like patches better than "Wait for the next version." - DER]

What I would like to see in Windows Development Support:
1) A bug list. We all know there are bugs. Tell us what they are.  Upload
   a new list to GEnie and Usenet at least once a month.  Cost to your
   company: ~$0.01.  This would solve alot of problems people have.
   [ Maybe even a transcribe of recently solved Online problems people have
     had. - DER ]
2) Get someone to help answer the questions on Usenet.  A monthly newletter
   telling what Microsoft is up to in the Windows area would be nice. 
   Also a directory of availiable Windows programs.
   The main idea here is that the official presense is what is important.
   Like parents at a little league ballgame do not actually help, but they
   make it easier to hit the ball.
   [ Make yourself seem. Don't be the big bad company, become one of us.]
3) Reduce the price of the Microsoft Systems Journal.  It is rather expensive.
4) We needs some more books.  Books are a fantastic and cheap way to support
   development.  Maybe a whole library of books: graphics, DDE, DLL, 
   *COMMUNICATIONS*, and other topics which pick up where Petzold's book
   ends.  You could probably convince some of us Windows programmers to help
   you here.
5) More sample programs.  Pass out more public domain programs which show
   how to do some of the neat things, like dividing a window into parts like
   in Excel.  This would not require too much programmer overhead.  Get some
   CO-OPs to do it.  Give away the source code of Petzold's book.  (A friend
   a mine called up to get the disk and they wanted him to supply them with
   proof that he had bought the SDK. Unbelievable!!!)
   [ Give us the source!]
6) Do not wait for a new version of Windows to update the development tools.
   Give us new versions as you write them.  In fact give us the SOURCE. 
   (A free way to do #5 and any piece of source makes programers like you more.)
   Maybe even give a free program to someone who really improves a utility.
   Give us the tools your Excel developers use the current versions of some of
   them are very buggy (Dialog Editor). 
7) Make a separate Windows user group on GEnie.  Get as many Windows developers
   to support their products there each in their own section.  Whitewater,
   ZSoft, Micrographics, Xian, and other could all be found in one location.
   It is still difficult to find out who sells Windows products.  This would
   make it easy.  (If you want to hear why this is a GREAT idea, I will
   write you another letter.)
8) Reduce the cost of programming for Windows.  Maybe a Windows BASIC 
   (TuringPlus Maybe).  Something for the Home/Turbo programmer to play with
   while all those Macs are running Hypercard (WE NEED NEWWAVE!)
   I just finished typing a long letter to a student who wants to start
   programming for Windows.  He is a student and can not afford all of these
   tools.  Shareware/Freeware is an important market!  These programmers are
   not going to program for Windows when they can get Turbo C for $100. I
   know, I wanted to program for Windows when it first came out, but as a
   student I could not justify the expense.  I had to wait 3 years before
   I could pay for it.  Three years is a long time to wait.
9) Offer patches NOW TODAY AT THIS TIME for compilers and programer tools.
   Working around bugs is difficult and wasted time.
   [ Again, treat programmers as adults who know what they are doing. ]
10) Improve the installation of Windows and support of multiple configurations.
   It is hard enough to test a Windows application as it is.


Just doing some of these suggestions would improve developer support an     
incredible amount.  Most of these suggestions would not cost much.  In fact
most of them are based on the idea that the developer can support himself with
a little help and A LOT of INFORMATION.

I am sorry that this ran a little long, but I really feel that Microsoft's
support to Windows developers has been poor in the past.  It is time that
this support was improved.  I like Windows and would like to see it succeed.
I feel that it needs alot of work, but it is headed in the right direction
(NewWave please). Windows may succeed without better support from MS, but
it would probably have already succeeded with this support. 

Again, thanks for reading comp.windows.ms.  Maybe in the near future we can
get you paid for reading it.

I do Windows by choice.  Support my choice.
-----Dale 
        Rogerson-----