Path: utzoo!attcan!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!clyde.concordia.ca!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!usc!brutus.cs.uiuc.edu!psuvax1!bralick
From: bralick@psuvax1.cs.psu.edu (Will Bralick)
Newsgroups: comp.edu
Subject: Re: CS education
Message-ID: <1989Dec18.042005.19231@psuvax1.cs.psu.edu>
Date: 18 Dec 89 04:20:05 GMT
References: <479@intelisc.nosun.UUCP> <7474@hubcap.clemson.edu>
Organization: Self Similar
Lines: 85

In article <7474@hubcap.clemson.edu> billwolf%hazel.cs.clemson.edu@hubcap.clemson.edu writes:
| From snidely@nosun.UUCP (David Schneider):
| > Most students consider themselves incarcerated, and aren't 
| > willing to make it easy for teachers to teach.
| 
|    And leading to low efficiency in the educational system; by making 
			~~~~~~~~~~
I guess we just aren't cranking out those degrees fast enough.  We
want more degrees for lower effort.

|    education truly free, in the sense that one can pursue education 
|    according to one's own interests

But everyone is sure to pursue their own interests, anyway.  There is
more to being an educated person than pursuing one's own interests
no matter how fascinating such interests might be.  I urge you to
read M. Adler's Paiedia (sp?) Proposal.  He argues that the schools
are not just a training ground for future employment, but also the
institution wherein the society's future adult citizens are taught.
How is an ignorant person supposed to have cultivated interests
in "irrelevant" subjects without being exposed to those subjects?

|    (limited only by the need to satisfy 
|    an absolutely minimal set of prerequisites),

Ah, yes, we don't want any of those foolish _breadth_ requirements,
now do we?  But, wait, there's more!  Why bother with those silly 
prerequisites?  Heck, people should be able to take anything 
they want.  How can you justify having some teacher decide 
what previous work is to be required before taking a class?
You will probably want the job of ensuring that only _really_
necessary courses are prescribed; we don't want those poor
oppressed students to actually learn anything that isn't absolutely
necessary for their exact job that they will get upon graduation.

|    But surely (heavy sarcasm) this could not compare with the thrill
|    of force-feeding irrelevant material to a captive audience which
|    really doesn't give a damn, right???

Students (based on their limited life experiences) cannot see the
relevance of the material.  What a surprise!  The surprise is that we
should put the "inmates in charge of the asylum" and have the admittedly
ignorant students decide what the relevant material _is_.  I am almost
willing to agree that they at least shouldn't be "captive" audiences.
That would be no problem if they would not have to be supported by 
the people who had the responsibility and self-discipline as young
adults to learn the "irrelevant" material.

|    After all, what could possibly 
|    lead us to believe that students treated this way will conclude that
|    education is completely worthless and decide to seek the more obvious
|    material benefits of selling crack instead??

After all, we all know that the only reason for pursuing an education
is to make more money.  In which case the student cannot _possibly_
learn anything that will make him more money than selling crack, so
the student shouldn't bother going to school, anyway.  

|    How could we reasonably
|    believe that by totally disregarding their interests and forcing them
|    to study wars of the 17th century, we could be seeing to it that they 
|    seek out drugs as an escape mechanism???

If a student "seeks out drugs as an escape mechanism" because they
are forced to (gasp!) actually read (that's right -- read) an actual
book that they wouldn't actually _buy_ because it doesn't fit within
the narrow confines of their "interests" then such a person should
seek professional help.  

|    No, our educational system 
|    is doing a FINE job of producing pregnant teenage dropouts who give 
|    birth to heroin-addicted babies -- why should we change a thing???

Our educational system has its problems, but I think that the culture
students _live in_ bears far more blame for the above than the school 
where they spend only 30 hours/week.  


Regards,

-- 
Will Bralick                          |  ... when princes think more of
     bralick@psuvax1.cs.psu.edu       |  luxury than of arms, they lose
     bralick@gondor.cs.psu.edu        |  their state.
with disclaimer;  use disclaimer;     |             - Niccolo Machiavelli