Xref: utzoo comp.edu:2792 sci.edu:853 Path: utzoo!attcan!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!ucbvax!sprite.berkeley.edu!elm From: elm@sprite.berkeley.edu (ethan miller) Newsgroups: comp.edu,sci.edu Subject: Re: CS education Message-ID: <33278@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU> Date: 18 Dec 89 08:31:25 GMT References: <479@intelisc.nosun.UUCP> <7474@hubcap.clemson.edu> <1989Dec18.042005.19231@psuvax1.cs.psu.edu> Sender: usenet@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU Reply-To: elm@sprite.berkeley.edu (ethan miller) Followup-To: sci.edu Organization: Berkeley--Shaken, not Stirred Lines: 97 In article <1989Dec18.042005.19231@psuvax1.cs.psu.edu> bralick@psuvax1.cs.psu.edu (Will Bralick) writes: %In article <7474@hubcap.clemson.edu> billwolf%hazel.cs.clemson.edu@hubcap.clemson.edu writes: %| From snidely@nosun.UUCP (David Schneider): %| > Most students consider themselves incarcerated, and aren't %| > willing to make it easy for teachers to teach. %| %| And leading to low efficiency in the educational system; by making % ~~~~~~~~~~ %I guess we just aren't cranking out those degrees fast enough. We %want more degrees for lower effort. No, what billwolf is saying is that education is inefficient; it takes longer to teach anything than it should take. In several of my undergrad classes, I don't feel that I got a semester's worth of material during the semester. *That* is inefficiency. %| (limited only by the need to satisfy %| an absolutely minimal set of prerequisites), % %Ah, yes, we don't want any of those foolish _breadth_ requirements, %now do we? But, wait, there's more! Why bother with those silly %prerequisites? Heck, people should be able to take anything %they want. How can you justify having some teacher decide %what previous work is to be required before taking a class? %You will probably want the job of ensuring that only _really_ %necessary courses are prescribed; we don't want those poor %oppressed students to actually learn anything that isn't absolutely %necessary for their exact job that they will get upon graduation. Anyone who can do well in a class should be allowed to take it. I'm glad that Brown was lenient on prerequisites; it meant that I got to take some classes I might not have otherwise. If I can handle the material, and I have the necessary background (or I'm willing to get it on my own), why shouldn't I be allowed to take an advanced class. Besides, many "advanced" classes in the liberal arts, such as history, merely delve deeply into one subject; a broad view of history (covering hundreds of years) may not be necessary for studying the Russian revolution. The Mayan civilization (and the Greeks for that matter) have little to do with it, yet History 1 is often considered a prerequisite for all other history classes. %| But surely (heavy sarcasm) this could not compare with the thrill %| of force-feeding irrelevant material to a captive audience which %| really doesn't give a damn, right??? % %Students (based on their limited life experiences) cannot see the %relevance of the material. What a surprise! The surprise is that we %should put the "inmates in charge of the asylum" and have the admittedly %ignorant students decide what the relevant material _is_. By putting the students in charge of their curriculum, you give them the choices, so they're interested in what they learn. You won't learn if you're force-fed. If you really are concerned with providing help on the curriculum, advise the students; don't order them around. The faculty only has more experience, not more intelligence. %| How could we reasonably %| believe that by totally disregarding their interests and forcing them %| to study wars of the 17th century, we could be seeing to it that they %| seek out drugs as an escape mechanism??? % %If a student "seeks out drugs as an escape mechanism" because they %are forced to (gasp!) actually read (that's right -- read) an actual %book that they wouldn't actually _buy_ because it doesn't fit within %the narrow confines of their "interests" then such a person should %seek professional help. But why should I be forced to read a book on something that doesn't interest me? Instead of forcing me to read the book, why not get me interested? %| No, our educational system %| is doing a FINE job of producing pregnant teenage dropouts who give %| birth to heroin-addicted babies -- why should we change a thing??? % %Our educational system has its problems, but I think that the culture %students _live in_ bears far more blame for the above than the school %where they spend only 30 hours/week. They're the same thing. Why is it that teachers get paid so little and have so little respect? Imagine the looks when a scientist earning $60K decides to teach high school and earn $25K. Why must such a person be "under too much pressure?" Why isn't teaching held in higher regard? It seems that the older generation is to blame; the schools often get the dregs of a discipline, not its stars. "Those who can, do; those who can't teach" seems to determine who teachs in schools, so is it any wonder that a student is fortunate to get one or two good teachers per year? The schools are to blame, but it is society that runs the schools. ethan ================================= ethan miller--cs grad student elm@sprite.berkeley.edu #include {...}!ucbvax!sprite!elm Witty signature line condemned due to major quake damage.