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From: bralick@psuvax1.cs.psu.edu (Will Bralick)
Newsgroups: comp.edu,sci.edu
Subject: Re: CS education
Message-ID: <1989Dec19.045948.9382@psuvax1.cs.psu.edu>
Date: 19 Dec 89 04:59:48 GMT
References: <479@intelisc.nosun.UUCP> <7474@hubcap.clemson.edu> <1989Dec18.042005.19231@psuvax1.cs.psu.edu> <33278@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU>
Organization: Self Similar
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In article <33278@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU> elm@sprite.berkeley.edu (ethan miller) writes:
| In article <1989Dec18.042005.19231@psuvax1.cs.psu.edu> bralick@psuvax1.cs.psu.edu (Will Bralick) writes:
| % In article <7474@hubcap.clemson.edu> billwolf%hazel.cs.clemson.edu@hubcap.clemson.edu writes:
| % | 
| % |    And leading to low efficiency in the educational system; by making 
| % 			~~~~~~~~~~
| % I guess we just aren't cranking out those degrees fast enough.  We
| % want more degrees for lower effort.
| 
| No, what billwolf is saying is that education is inefficient; it takes
| longer to teach anything than it should take.  In several of my
| undergrad classes, I don't feel that I got a semester's worth of material
| during the semester.  *That* is inefficiency.

What he is saying is that you have interests that you wish to pursue, and
that taking courses that you perceive to be inconsequential is a waste of
your time.  You seem to be saying that in at least some (one?) of your
courses you didn't get a "semester's worth of material" implying that
you had time to pursue your interests, I suppose.

| Anyone who can do well in a class should be allowed to take it.

And how can one hope to predict that the student has the necessary
background to be successful in a course?  By self-affirmation, I 
suppose.  Now, if a student thinks a course might look good on 
a resume' and the student takes the course without adequate
preparation, then the student should fail (or drop) to course,
right?  Perhaps the student will struggle along visiting the
professor and/or asking questions in class that were covered in
the prerequisite courses.

| % |    But surely (heavy sarcasm) this could not compare with the thrill
| % |    of force-feeding irrelevant material to a captive audience which
| % |    really doesn't give a damn, right???
| % 
| % Students (based on their limited life experiences) cannot see the
| % relevance of the material.  What a surprise!  The surprise is that we
| % should put the "inmates in charge of the asylum" and have the admittedly
| % ignorant students decide what the relevant material _is_.
| 
| By putting the students in charge of their curriculum, you give them
| the choices, so they're interested in what they learn.

The students don't learn because they don't choose to become interested
in the subject matter.  They are -- spoiled.  They only want to do 
what they want to do.  At least education can disabuse them of the
notion that they will be able to live like that :-).

| You won't
| learn if you're force-fed.

If one is sufficiently mature one needn't be "force-fed."  Students
who are wise enough to design their own curriculum are certainly wise
enough to carefully select a school which will satisfy their objectives
while keeping their "irrelevant" courses to a minimum.  Students who
make an informed decision about the school they will attend and then
whine about having to take "irrelevant" courses need to grow up.

| % |    How could we reasonably
| % |    believe that by totally disregarding their interests and forcing them
| % |    to study wars of the 17th century, we could be seeing to it that they 
| % |    seek out drugs as an escape mechanism???
| % 
| % If a student "seeks out drugs as an escape mechanism" because they
| % are forced to (gasp!) actually read (that's right -- read) an actual
| % book that they wouldn't actually _buy_ because it doesn't fit within
| % the narrow confines of their "interests" then such a person should
| % seek professional help.  
| 
| But why should I be forced to read a book on something that doesn't
| interest me?  Instead of forcing me to read the book, why not
| get me interested?

One might get oneself interested.  One might be in a situation where 
one is faced with doing something that one regards as distasteful, but 
which will be beneficial in the long term.  Instead of hunkering down 
and attempting to make the best of it, some people prefer to complain 
about how unfair life is.

| % |    No, our educational system 
| % |    is doing a FINE job of producing pregnant teenage dropouts who give 
| % |    birth to heroin-addicted babies -- why should we change a thing???
| % 
| % Our educational system has its problems, but I think that the culture
| % students _live in_ bears far more blame for the above than the school 
| % where they spend only 30 hours/week.  
| 
| They're the same thing.

I disagree.  One's educational system is not the sum total of one's culture.

| Why is it that teachers get paid so little and

I recommend this be pursued in sci.econ.

| have so little respect?

Some teachers deserve little respect.  Most certainly deserve our respect
and the respect of their students, but then again, we have been talking
about students who are spoiled; who only respect their own desires.

| Imagine the looks when a scientist earning
| $60K decides to teach high school and earn $25K.

Why should they care what anybody _else_ thinks?  Some people 
are motivated by other things than money.  Some people enjoy
teaching.  


Regards,

-- 
Will Bralick                          |  ... when princes think more of
     bralick@psuvax1.cs.psu.edu       |  luxury than of arms, they lose
     bralick@gondor.cs.psu.edu        |  their state.
with disclaimer;  use disclaimer;     |             - Niccolo Machiavelli