Path: utzoo!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!pdn!dinsdale!reggie
From: reggie@dinsdale.nm.paradyne.com (George W. Leach)
Newsgroups: comp.edu
Subject: Re: CS education
Message-ID: <6846@pdn.paradyne.com>
Date: 20 Dec 89 14:44:18 GMT
References: <479@intelisc.nosun.UUCP> <7474@hubcap.clemson.edu> <583@cherry5.UUCP>
Sender: usenet@pdn.paradyne.com
Reply-To: reggie@dinsdale.paradyne.com (George W. Leach)
Organization: AT&T Suncoast Division, Largo FL
Lines: 120

In article <583@cherry5.UUCP> murphyn@cell.mot.COM (Neal P. Murphy) writes:

>I don't know how many of you, out there, are parents. I myself am not one.

    I am.  I've got three kids, one in second grade and two pre-schoolers.

>But, it seems that most of the problems in education stem from the changing
>of society in general. Look at the East Germans going back to E. Germany
>after a few weeks of working in the West: they didn't like having to work
>so hard for what they were earning. Now, look at us, here in the US (and
>perhaps elsewhere). We work exceedingly hard so that we can assure ourselves
>a future where we won't have to work so hard. Our choice. But, there are
>too many parents out there who are working long and hard hours. They simply
>are not there to teach their children the discipline they will need later
>in life. 

   Yes, unfortunately I do see a great deal of problems due to the working
couple with children.  My wife was able to retire from the workforce to
Stay home with the kids.  Not every family can afford to do this.  Others
simply put career ahead of children.  The former have no choice.  The later
do.  In my mind, it is better to not have children at all, if one of the
parents can not put there career on hold until the children are older.


>The children have no direction. 

   Young children need a great deal of direction.  If you are not there to
give it to them, then who will?  The seeds are sown early in life for much
of what will happen with them in the future.

>They turn to drugs because that's the only thing that forces them into a
>course of action. 

    Forces who?  The parents?  Many parents try to ignore drug problems,
if they even know about them.  My own parents were much too nieve to
even be able to recognize a drug problem.  I'm sure many parents are
in the same boat.

    Also, I think you are oversimplifying the reasons that kids turn to
drugs.  There are many reasons and even kids who have loving, caring
parents that try to motivate them to do well in school and provide them
with a positive outlook on life may find they have a drug problem to 
deal with.  Remember kids do have a mind of their own.  Some will have
to learn by experience rather than from the experiences of others.

>For years, parents
>attempted to shift the teaching of discipline (I do *not* mean corporal
>punishment, here.) to the schools. The teachers weren't (and aren't) prepared
>for that. 

    I saw plenty of that going to Catholic school as a kid.  Lots of parents
Would send their kids there to get "discipline".  You can also see parents
shipping their kids off to a military school for this.

>And the school boards, courts, children's advocacy groups, etc.
>won't let them in any case. We have an entire generation of children growing
>up with *NO* discipline whatever. They don't know the concept of doing 
>something simply because they must. They only do something if they *WANT*
>to do it.

    I don't know if this happens because parents expect the schools to
provide discipline for their kids or if they simply don't know how to
do so themselvers.


    Someone once told me "just because you can make babies doesn't make
you a parent".  There is a whole lotta truth in that statement.  Unfortunately,
no one trains you to be a good parent.  All you know is what you experienced
as a child.  Your perspectives change as you become a parent.  I don't know
how many times I have told my father how much more I appreciate how he raised
me now that I am presented with raising kids of my own.  It is a tough job.
Unfortunately, many are not equiped to cope with it, nor are they able to
(and in many cases willing) to get help.

    Did you ever ask someone why they are having children?  I bet a great
many people do so because "it is expected of them" or "it is what everyone
does, you get a job, get married, buy a house, and have kids".  I'll bet
that far too many people don't have kids because they want to commit to
the job of spending the next eighteen to twenty-one years raising them.
This fact has nothing to do with socio-economic conditions either.  You
find rich and poor people who haven't got a clue as to why they have
kids.
   
>Unfortunately for them, most of education involves force-feeding *seemingly*
>irrelevant material to students. By this, I mean, "Take my word, student. You
>need to learn this, even if *you* don't see its relevancy, because *I* see
>its relevancy, and that relevancy may not become apparent to you for weeks,
>months, or even years from now. So learn it, as best you can." Our teachers
>have very little support from the parents. Education begins at home. It is
>supplemented at school.

   Exactly.  However, I *do* feel that kids would be much better motivated
to do well in school *if* they could be shown how what they are learning
applies to life.  For example, while we still lived in New York, my son
attended the Fieldston School.  In the upper grades for history they would
study a certain time period.  For example, the Pilgrims.  They would not
just read about them, but they would actually experience their lifestyle.
The kids would try to make clothing the same way they did, cook food, build
things, etc....  What an eye opener that was.  And the kids are really into
it.  But it takes money, time, and a caring teacher.


   If a child has the support at home they can excel no matter what the
situation of school.  Without that support, no school can correct the
problem.



>Our educational system is producing pregnant (and impregnating, to be fair)
>teenage dropouts addicted to drugs because society, as a whole, has failed
>them. We have failed them. And we are stuck with supporting them for the
>rest of their lives. At this point, we have two choices: we can hope and
>pray that the problem goes away on its own (not likely), or we can work
>together to fix the system, to ensure that such widescale abuse of our
>children does not again occur (also not likely to happen). Somebody -
>anybody - please prove me wrong.
George W. Leach					AT&T Paradyne 
(uunet|att)!pdn!reggie				Mail stop LG-133
Phone: 1-813-530-2376				P.O. Box 2826
FAX: 1-813-530-8224				Largo, FL 34649-2826 USA