Path: utzoo!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!brutus.cs.uiuc.edu!psuvax1!bralick
From: bralick@cs.psu.edu (Will Bralick)
Newsgroups: comp.edu
Subject: Re: CS education
Message-ID: <1989Dec21.051715.1574@cs.psu.edu>
Date: 21 Dec 89 05:17:15 GMT
References: <479@intelisc.nosun.UUCP> <7474@hubcap.clemson.edu> <1989Dec18.042005.19231@psuvax1.cs.psu.edu> <462@smcnet.UUCP>
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In article <462@smcnet.UUCP> byoder@smcnet.UUCP (Brian Yoder) writes:
>In article <1989Dec18.042005.19231@psuvax1.cs.psu.edu>, bralick@psuvax1.cs.psu.edu (Will Bralick) writes:
>> In article <7474@hubcap.clemson.edu> billwolf%hazel.cs.clemson.edu@hubcap.clemson.edu writes:
>
>> |    education truly free, in the sense that one can pursue education 
>> |    according to one's own interests
>> 
>> But everyone is sure to pursue their own interests, anyway.  
>
>They can't if they are in a straightjacket curriculum and can't choose
>an alternate school.  Don't get me wrong on the issue of loose vs. tight
>curricular requirements.  I think that if anything, today's curricula
>are too lenient in that they don't REALLY require students to learn anything.

When I went to school (K-12), I was not spending my every waking moment
on schoolwork.  I daresay today's students aren't either.  In the 
students' free time they will pursue their own interests -- that seems
axiomatic to me.  The complaint that I have seen in this group is that
the poor oppressed student is not allowed to pursue his own interests
_all the time_.  Presumably, that means that if the student's interest 
is watching tee-vee then he should be allowed to do that 24-hours/day.
We basically agree that the educational system needs reform.  The problem
is that there are some that advocate turning the schools into trade
schools wherein one learns job skills and no bovine excrement like
history, literature, etc.  I disagree.

> ...
>> |    But surely (heavy sarcasm) this could not compare with the thrill
>> |    of force-feeding irrelevant material to a captive audience which
>> |    really doesn't give a damn, right???
>> 
>> Students (based on their limited life experiences) cannot see the
>> relevance of the material.  
>
>That is a comment I heard all through my education and it's as much
>garbage as it was then.

I was referring to new, but "irrelevant" information, like history, etc.

>they are bored.  Telling a bored student that he's not bored seems to
>be pretty presumptious even for a professional educator.

I am not saying students aren't bored.  Rather I am saying that students
are bored because they don't make the effort to become interested in the
material (once again, I am referring to _new_ ("irrelevant") material).
Teachers cannot _force_ students to become interested.  The best they
can do is to communicate an enthusiasm for learning in general and their
subject in particular.  The student must choose to become interested
and then make the effort to learn the material.

> ...
>
>   Since when are students required to read a REAL book? (ie. not a text book)

I read Tale of Two Cities, The Rime of the Ancient Mariner, Romeo and
Juliett, Fahrenhiet 451, etc. in 9th grade English class.  These qualify
as real books, I think.  Other courses (e.g. science, math, etc.) were,
of course, taught from textbooks.

>> Our educational system has its problems, but I think that the culture
>> students _live in_ bears far more blame for the above than the school 
>> where they spend only 30 hours/week.  
>
>I don't believe that for a minute.  That might be an adequate excuse (though
>certainly not much of a comfort to the people whose lives are miserable
>because the the 13 years of 30 hours/week they didn't learn to read.  At
>least they have a (worthless) diploma.

Huh?  I am saying that schools in 30 hours/week cannot overcome the
influence of the environment the student lives in.  If the environment
is anti-intellectual and/or anti-education, then the student will
likely have a negative attitude towards school.  The student's peers
are particularly important here.

>That's why changes need to come from the outside.  Does
>anyone honestly expect for the NEA to allow evaluation of the effectiveness
>of it's members? Not on your life.

I agree, now about the direction of change ...

Regards,

-- 
Will Bralick                          |  ... when princes think more of
     bralick@psuvax1.cs.psu.edu       |  luxury than of arms, they lose
     bralick@gondor.cs.psu.edu        |  their state.
with disclaimer;  use disclaimer;     |             - Niccolo Machiavelli