Path: utzoo!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uwm.edu!psuvax1!bralick From: bralick@cs.psu.edu (Will Bralick) Newsgroups: comp.edu Subject: Re: Education Summary: long... Message-ID: Date: 22 Dec 89 03:54:27 GMT References: <1989Dec21.061052.3721@cs.psu.edu> <7514@hubcap.clemson.edu> Organization: Self Similar Lines: 130 In article <7514@hubcap.clemson.edu> billwolf%hazel.cs.clemson.edu@hubcap.clemson.edu writes: | From bralick@cs.psu.edu (Will Bralick): | | > This is no red herring, you are trying to | > avoid the issue that the students might lack the drive and determination | > to make a legal buck, opting instead for the fast, big money of drug | > trafficking due to greed, impatience, etc. | | The problem is that even if they do have the drive and determination, | there is enough irrelevant bullshit to go through to make them think | twice about the "legal" route. Oh, please. If they have the drive and determination no amount of perceived academic irrelevancy will deter them. Persons of such flimsy moral character (thinking that their _boredom_ justifies their anti-social behaviour) would probably leap at any provocation to pursue their true interest (money) without regards to societal norms. | As a consequence people become drug | dealers rather than going into the various professions they would | naturally have chosen in the absence of unnecessary barriers. Dang! I wanted to bee a doktor, but they sed I had to tak speling! I refyuz to put up wit dis irr, uh, urruluph, uh, stoopid bullshit anuthr minnit!!!!! I'm gunna bee a krak deelr and then wen Im filthee rich I will lern to apre, uh, uppree, uh, like art an shit. | >> People in the ghetto are good for being anything they want to be; | > | > Unless they want to become an historian, a writer, etc. | | That's fine, too; anyone who wants to do this should be free to | do it, using a program which sends them straight into their field | of choice. This differs sharply from the Bralick method, in which | everyone must study lots of BS which is irrelevant to their interests, | whatever those interests might be. It _is_ relevant to their interest for them to study history. It may not be _pleasurable_ (at least initially), but it is in their interest. Humanities may not be immediately gratifying, but they are not "irrelevant" to the student's interests. How is one supposed to be aware that certain "fields" even exist without having been exposed to them? | I advocate ensuring that students are able to search the literature | in their fields in order to solve practical problems, This mechanistic, unidimensional, hollow, overly-utilitarian view of human beings is perhaps the product of a disregard for the humanities. | and that a | system of continuing education be set up in order to provide lifelong | learning; Such already exists. It is called a library. Of course our 'prentices would not have the tools to use the library, unless they had 'prenticed to a librarian. The lifelong learning is something one does on one's own -- not for a certificate that makes one more competitive for that raise. | There are many means of becoming politically informed which do not | involve required nonproductive topics -- reading the newspapers is | one of the best means of preparing to vote upon the topics of the day. Yeah, why just _learn_ about history when we can _repeat_ it instead. Reading the newspapers. That's rich. Why would they want to do anything so inefficient? I am sure there are professional journals that they could read to move them a little faster on that fast track to financial success, neh? | > Please define the "fast track to financial success." | | A program which will provide comprehensive professional training | in the profession of the user's choice, which is minimal with | respect to time required and with respect to cost of training. At what age is an individual encouraged to choose his profession? I guess little Johnny can get a student loan to pay for first grade -- we can go back not only to guilds, but to indentured servitude, too. It would be inefficient of me to want to pay for a potential future competitor's training, now wouldn't it? I am still waiting for the specifics: 1) how fast? and 2) how successful? How can you expect to design an educational system without requirements? | ... | > What? Our mature, rational students -- people who can design their own | > curriculum -- cannot figure out the rationale for the courses that are | > currently offered? | | The idea is to design minimal curricula which target the user-chosen | professional objective, justifying them solely in terms of that specific | objective. Whoa, there. Who do you think you are to design somebody's personally chosen curriculum that will put them on the financial fast track? The next thing you might say is that the _user_ might not know what courses to take to prepare themselves for their future. The student that wants to be a "brane sergen" doesn't need bullstuff like "algbra" or "kemistree" -- the student knows what he needs: a drill, a sharp knife, and a stiff to practice on. The next thing we know you might try to sneak some irrelevant bullstuff like "ekinomix" in on the student -- since the student's future _might_ entail (and you'll find this hard to believe) something besides work. | I ask only that we set up such a system and let it freely compete | with the "traditional" bullshit-laden system; the free market will | provide conclusive evidence of what is best. Let me see if I can explain this one last time. It is not simply an economic question. This individual is not just being trained for a job. This individual will also be a voter and possibly a parent. This individual cannot predict the exact course of his future, and so would be ill-served by being turned into an over-specialized barbarian. This individual needs general tools from which he can specialize when necessary. Regards, -- Will Bralick | ... when princes think more of bralick@psuvax1.cs.psu.edu | luxury than of arms, they lose bralick@gondor.cs.psu.edu | their state. with disclaimer; use disclaimer; | - Niccolo Machiavelli