Xref: utzoo gnu.misc.discuss:568 alt.religion.computers:1154 Path: utzoo!attcan!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!clyde.concordia.ca!uunet!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!pt.cs.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!jb3o+ From: jb3o+@andrew.cmu.edu (Jon Allen Boone) Newsgroups: gnu.misc.discuss,alt.religion.computers Subject: Re: Reverse engineering, piracy, etc. (was GNUclear Warfare) Message-ID: <4ZXac6_00WY7M=p5Y7@andrew.cmu.edu> Date: 19 Dec 89 17:04:06 GMT References: <2558@flatline.UUCP> <4639@sugar.hackercorp.com> <25770F75.3EA@rpi.edu> <1913@texsun.Central.Sun.COM> <1989Dec7.075641.13191@news.acc.Virginia.EDU> <4754@sugar.hackercorp.com> <1989Dec13.213445.13639@world.std.com>, <4757@sugar.hackercorp.com> <4ZW1ij Organization: Class of '92, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 122 In-Reply-To: rang@cs.wisc.edu (Anton Rang) writes: > In article <4ZW1ijS00WBKE1qh5C@andrew.cmu.edu> jb3o+@andrew.cmu.edu (Jon Allen Boone) writes: > >In fact, some claim that this > >has been said "Write your own " Well, that~s what rms did - he > >didn~t like the actions that some group was taking, he had access to > >their stuff, he reversed engineered the software and viola - he had a > >version to use (or give away as i believe he did) and he didn~t have to > >put up with the other people bs. > > No, he did *not* reverse engineer the software. Reverse engineering > means that you take somebody's software, figure out exactly how it > works, and write something which is implemented the same way (more or > less). This is often illegal. He simply wrote more-or-less > compatible replacements. While you claim that he did not reverse engineer the software (which is contrary to what i have heard and read - why not ask rms himself? i think i will), other than a legal technicality, i can't see what the difference is. > >If no one is interested in BIOS, then why does Phoenix claim that > >pirates are running them out of business? > > I don't know the details of this claim, but there are at least two > distinct reasons for piracy: (1) to use software without paying for > it, or (2) to make money by selling other people's software. I'm > willing to bet that #2 is the only reason people would bother to > pirate a BIOS implementation: so they could sell it more cheaply than > Phoenix (since the pirates don't have to pay back their development > costs). Actually, that's not quite true. Some people pirate BIOS so that they can get them for their PCs without having to pay for them. Sometimes, they even give them away to others so that they too do not have to pay for them. > >Now, the fact that *most* pirates are high-school kids > > Bad assumption. Most pirates of game software may be high-school > kids. Most pirates overall, though, are not: they're just average > computer users. Corporations are bad at this. The average school > pirates more software than all of the kids going to it. That well may be - if so, then you should take it up with the management of the corporations - after all, they are responsible for hiring the people - perhaps universities should stress *ethics* in business more. However, if it is true, then i find it hard to believe that software companies too would be immune - thus i can find no reason to sympathise with them when their software gets pirated in turn. > >What you *can* say (and what i gather you are saying) is that given that > >MicroSoft hadn~t written Excel or Word, you sure-as-blue-blazes wouldn~t > >have either. > > If MicroSoft hadn't written Word, I suspect it would not have been > written for a LONG time. I haven't got a steady enough source of > income to be able to spend 20 years writing, debugging, testing, and > writing manuals for a program like that. Even if I got together with > 10 other people and we wrote it in three years, there's no way I would > be willing to spend 3 years without any income for it. I can't afford > to do that (not being independently wealthy). Why is it that you think it would have taken 20 years? Perhaps you work slowly, but i wouldn't think it would take you more than 6 months worth of man-hours (which could stretch into 20 years! :-) ). However, working full time on the project shouldn't take you 20 years! Even if you got 3 people to work on it, it would take a long time - in fact, it could well take longer - other programmers will have different styles and methods that they wish to use - homogenization of code is tough after having 3 or more people working on it. > On the other hand, I can manage to spend 20-30 hours a week writing > programs if I expect to make some money from it. I paid for three > years of college with money from commercial software I've written. I > wouldn't have been able to spend much time on it if I were doing it > for free; I'd be working the 20-30 hours a week someplace where I > could make money. I work 20 - 30 hours a week, and go to school full-time - i don't have as much time to program as i would like, granted, but then again, i *waste* too much time doing things like playing tetris - my fault! > Sure, I write free software from time to time. But I don't usually > spend the time to write user manuals, add in features which aren't > likely to be used by me or my friends, etc. Why not? Do you normally write sloppy letters to your friends or relatives? Do you even bother to write to your friends or relatives? Someone on the irclist was saying that irc needs more professionalism, and while it may or may not, i think that most PD software does. Just because you are not paid doesn't mean you *shouldn't* do the best job you are capable of doing. There once was such a thing as pride in workmanship (which can, and should, extend to software). > >Of course, you could alway says (with a tone of superiority) "well, if > >you want it, then reverse engineer it!" > > If you want it, and you're not willing to pay me for my time and > trouble, write it yourself--from scratch--since you obviously believe > that it wasn't any work for me to write it in the first place. You don't seem to realise that people do just that - however, in my experience, they usually only implement the tools that they feel they will need and will not bother trying to implement your entire program if they do not need to. Also, they often will take their work with them instead of releasing it in the PD for much the same reasons you claim you don't write as much free software as you seem to think we want you to. > Anton > > +---------------------------+------------------+-------------+ > | Anton Rang (grad student) | rang@cs.wisc.edu | UW--Madison | > +---------------------------+------------------+-------------+ iain the flippant | You'll PAY To Know What You REALLY Think | jb3o@andrew.cmu.edu(INTERNET) | Your MIND Left Intentionally Blank | R746JB3O@cmccvb(BITNET) | SCIENCE DOES NOT REMOVE THE TERROR OF THE GODS| disclaimer: anything I say may be wrong - I don't represent anyone but me