Path: utzoo!attcan!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!rutgers!bellcore!att!cbnews!military From: Brian Ross (bxr307@coombs.anu.oz) Newsgroups: sci.military Subject: Re: MANPADS (MAN Portable Air-Defence Systems - Lt.SAM's) Message-ID: <12360@cbnews.ATT.COM> Date: 15 Dec 89 03:09:52 GMT Sender: military@cbnews.ATT.COM Lines: 89 Approved: military@att.att.com From: Brian Ross (bxr307@coombs.anu.oz) munnari!gara.une.oz.au!pmorriso@uunet.UU.NET (Perry Morrison MATH) writes: In article <12171@cbnews.ATT.COM>, henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) writes: [Stuff about Israeli A4 exhaust pipe extensions] >I believe that when the sam-7 was first used in vietnam, it was highly >effective against helicopters (especially CH-47's) and that many choppers >had a "stove-pipe" added to their exhaust so that the missile warhead would >mostly destroy a piece of pipe rather than turbines, people etc. Same > principle I guess. The "stove-pipes" applied in Vietnam where for a different purpose. If you look closely at those applied to choppers they actually curve upwards. This was an early anti-IR measure which directed the exhaust into the rotor downwash in an effort to mix it with cool air and mask it from IR guidance systems. Its interesting though that this discussion about MANPADS has only spoken briefly about the other methods of guiding such a missile to its target. The RBS-70 with its laser beam guidance is an interesting example. It is perhaps the only real "all-aspect" MANPADS and is totally unjammable. It is also the only system fitted with an IFF (Identify Friend or Foe) system on the mount. Something which will be crucial in the next one if the digger on the ground is not going to shoot down his own side's aircraft. All the gunner has to do is keep is cross-hairs on the target and the guidance impulses are transmitted up the laser beam to the missile which then reacts to them (note the laser beam does not illuminate the target. It is simply a means of transmitting guidance messages to the missile). The system is relatively simple and fool proof. In addition training costs are reduced as the gunner only has to train with a laser beam, not a missile. Simulator training costs are also reduced. >On A-4s, the Israelis did very neat mods including avionics refits and >a nifty smoke diffuser that electrostatically diffused exhaust smoke. This is >a problem on many A-4s and makes them easier to track (F-4s are even worse). >On the issue on Sam effectiveness, there's no doubt that (amongst >other air defences) they help provide a threat environment that forces CAS >aircraft to go low and fast, thereby minimising their effectiveness. The answer >is to use expensive aircraft with terrain following radar or other navigational >capabilities that allow them to come onto a target and hit it first time, low >and fast (e.g. the PAVETAC system on F-111s). The problem is of course that >these planes are very expensive and losses in CAS are very high-every now and >then even a stray round will bring one down and at say $40m per unit, that >gets mighty expensive mighty fast. >This is an issue we face in Australia. We operate 75 F/A 18s and >the most likely threat (from where?) is low level- squads of people hiding >in the bush and blowing up the occasional thing.Are we really going to use >F/A 18s to hit the odd truck/person? Sounds like a classic technology >differential. Ah! Then you have never closely studied the Australian Government's 1986 Dibb Report or 1987 White Paper on defence have you? The F/A18, like the Navy have been tasked with attempting to defeat an enemy before he can reach our shores. If he manages to do so then the Army is to destroy him. In addition both papers called for the establishment of two squadrons of light ground attack aircraft. At the moment that has been placed on the back burner to fund other acquisitions which are more pressing. However the lead contenders are at the moment the BAE Hawk 100, the Dornier/Aerospatiale Alpha Jet and the Pilatus PC9 trainer (which has just entered service). If/when the aircraft enter service the main task of the F/A18's will most probably become primarily air-superiority (which it already is) and then maritime strike, and finally CAS. The smaller, lighter and cheaper future LGA will be employed as a CAS for missions within Australia. Where their relatively low speed and long loiter times will be used to advantage for the scenarios being planned against. _-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_ -_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_- | Brian Ross |Snail Mail:- "Bill Bracket the self-made man who came| in a packet" | Brian Ross ----------------------------------------| Sociology Dept.R.S.S.S. E-Mail Addresses:- bxr307@coombs.anu.oz | Australian National University | CANBERRA,A.C.T.,2601, bxr307@csc.anu.oz | AUSTRALIA | _-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_ -_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-