Path: utzoo!attcan!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!mailrus!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!brutus.cs.uiuc.edu!psuvax1!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: MATH1H3@uhvax1.uh.edu (David H. Wagner) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Random thoughts on free will, etc. Message-ID: Date: 15 Dec 89 05:21:35 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: University of Houston Lines: 74 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu In article , arm@neon.stanford.edu (Alexander d Macalalad) writes: > After reading the thread on predestination, I started thinking about free > will vs. determinism, specifically with regard to sin. The question I have > is this: if God knows our actions beforehand, and even further, if He > intends for us to commit those actions, then is He not in some sense > responsible for our sin? Conversely, if He is not responsible in > some sense for our sin, then how is it possible for us to resist His > will and do something other than what He intended? (Of course, I mean > "He" in the genderless sense of the word.) I will try to answer this briefly. It is of course, a hard question. We must begin with the creation and fall. God created Adam and Eve in his image, that is, perfectly holy. They had free will to obey God or to disobey him. They freely chose to disobey him. He foreknew this, but he did not intend it, for they acted against his will. But God, in his grace and foreknowledge, already planned a solution for this sin. He provide for a Savior. Already, as God told Adam, Eve, and the serpent (Satan) the punishment for their sin, he promises the Savior. "And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel." Note that this indicates a victory of the woman's offspring (Jesus) over Satan. Since the fall man has no free will. He is a slave to sin and the devil. He is dead in his transgressions and sins (Eph 2:1). He cannot believe of his own accord any more than a dead man can make himself alive. "But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions -- it is by grace you have been saved." This much is a clear teaching of scripture which no Christian should deny. What is hard is the question, "Why aren't all men brought to faith?" The scriptures teach that Jesus's redemption is for all humanity, but only those who believe in Jesus receive this redemption. Even though God "wants all men to be saved, and to come to a knowledge of the truth", it is apparent that not all believe. Aside from those who do not hear the Gospel and remain "objects of wrath" (Eph 2:3), some hear the message and reject it. See the parable of the sower, and its explanation. Also Stephen says: "You stiff-necked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit! Was there ever a prophet your fathers did not persecute." Thus we must conclude that it is possible to resist the Holy Spirit -- and, incidentally, that the Holy Spirit spoke to the Jews through the prophets before Jesus. Beyond this, the rest is a mystery which we cannot understand with our reason. It is useless to pursue it any further. Besides, I have to exit now. David H. Wagner My opinions and beliefs are completely separated from my employer's lack thereof. [David is writing from a position (Lutheran) that is traditionally somewhat "softer" on predestination than mine. I am a supra-lapsarian, which means that I believe God intended the Fall. (Actually, I believe in evolution, so I don't believe that the Fall is to be located in a single pair of humans, but that has no real impact on these discussions.) Thus I would have to say that God is in some sense responsible for sin. His plan is that all would sin so that he can show mercy to all (ca. Rom 11:32 -- sorry for not being more precise, but I don't have a Bible here). However the statement that his plan involved all in sin is misleading unless the other half is taken into account: that this state is the first stage in God's plan, which also includes redemption from sin. Why God chose for people to go through sin, rather than creating them immune from it, is not a question that I'm qualified to answer. "responsible" becomes a very tricky concept in this context. I'd say that there are two levels of responsibility here. We are responsible for our own sin. They're our actions, not God's. They reflect our character and motivations, not his. However God is responsible for the overall situation, including the fact that we sin. So while our individual sins don't reflect his character, the fact that he has chosen to create the kind of world that has sin in it, rather than what we might consider a utopia, does reflect God's character in some way. This is a responsibility that as far as I can see, Scripture makes no attempt to duck. Job is primarily about the problem of evil. In it, Job's friends attempt in one way or the other to deflect responsibility from God. Job holds God responsible. It is Job who is declared to be in the right. --clh]