Path: utzoo!attcan!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: cash@uunet.uu.net (Peter Cash) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Random thoughts on free will, etc. Message-ID: Date: 15 Dec 89 06:53:40 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: Convex Computer Corporation, Richardson, Tx. Lines: 82 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu In article arm@neon.stanford.edu (Alexander d Macalalad) writes: >After reading the thread on predestination, I started thinking about free >will vs. determinism, specifically with regard to sin. The question I have >is this: if God knows our actions beforehand, and even further, if He >intends for us to commit those actions, then is He not in some sense >responsible for our sin? Are you saying that God's foreknowledge implies that God willed for things to happen the way that they did? I certainly don't see why it should be so. Just because God foresaw Adam's fall does not imply that God wanted Adam to fall. In any case, why do you think that God wanted Adam to fall? This certainly seems false to me. >Conversely, if He is not responsible in >some sense for our sin, then how is it possible for us to resist His >will and do something other than what He intended? God intended for Adam *not* to fall. But because God made a man and not a puppet, the door was open for Adam to sin if he wished. >The easy answer is that by our free will we have the choice to do His >will or do something entirely different. But the implication there is >that salvation is in our hands through the choices we make. If this >were the case, then Christ would be just another prophet with a special >message from God, rather than our Saviour. Why is that? I do think that we make choices, but without Christ's sacrifice, we would be powerless to attain salvation. Christ opened the door so that we can walk through it--or not. ("I am the door...") >Another answer is that sin has blinded us to God's will, and only by the >grace of God are we able to do His will. I think this comes close to >the Catholic position, but I am no theologian. Yet to me this position >implies that by choosing when to give us grace, God is somehow responsible >for the actions we commit without grace (i.e. sins). By analogy (and all >the caveats that come with reasoning by analogy), if person A allows person >B to walk on what A knows to be thin ice, then isn't A responsible in some >way if B falls through the ice and drowns? Not if B is an adult, and A warned him! > >Here are some thoughts I've had in trying to deal with this paradox. First >of all, there is a problem with my definition of free will. So far I have >been treating free will as a differential (i.e. a capacity to act >different from how God intended me to act). So the paradox was partially >due to the problem of how free will can exist when God intends every >action. I am not compelled to act in a certain way just because God wills me to act in that way--any more than children are compelled to act according to the will of their parents. I can disobey God's will. That I can do so does not imply that God's power is limited--it's not that he *can't* compel me; he *refrains* from compelling me. He made me a sentient being, a being with (some) intelligence and a will--and he has given me the freedom to exercise that intelligence and that will. If God made men and then ran them like puppets, his creation would be rather pointless, don't you think? >Even if that question is resolved, the problem of evil >still remains; >namely, how can evil exist in the world if God intends >every action? This is the age-old "problem of evil", and there are no easy answers to it. Though there are partial answers, they all ultimately fail. Those who love God must take the position that we simply don't understand God nor God's plan well enough to answer the question satisfactorily. We have to trust him. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ | Die Welt ist alles, was Zerfall ist. | Peter Cash | | cash@convex ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~