Path: utzoo!attcan!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!clyde.concordia.ca!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: bnr-fos!bmers58!davem@watmath.waterloo.edu (Dave Mielke) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Jesus Saves (was Re: Strangers in a Strange World Message-ID: Date: 17 Dec 89 07:27:22 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: Bell-Northern Research, Ottawa, Canada Lines: 37 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu In article jrossi@jato.Jpl.Nasa.Gov (The Electric Sol) writes: >The fundamental problem being it seems that we *have* to do something >to be saved. We have to *desire* it. We have to *want* it. Jesus >is willing to throw us a rope, if we ask him to, right. Does this >desire come from us or from God? If it does come from us, as some >one else pointed out, we do have, however small, reason to boast. If >it dosen't come from us but from God, then a Just God cannot punish >anyone, IMHO. The desire must ceom from God and not from us. If it comes from us then we would, as you have correctly and humbly observed, have cause to boast. The Scriptures declare that God has done things in a manner which does not permit us to boast. Ephesians 2:8-9 says "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: {it is} the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.". This passage also tells us something extremely important which also confirms that the desire comes from God. It tells us that the faith which we must have, i.e. the desire which we are discussing, is a gift from God. A gift is freely given, and is neither bought nor earned. I do not understand why you feel that a just God would not punish anyone. It is, after all, His preannounced punishment of eternal damnation that we all really do deserve. A truly just God must dispense the punishment which He has declared ahead of time to be the wages of each of our sins. He is, in fact, so just that He had to take that very same punishment of eternal damnation upon Himself in order to permit Himself to forgive those whom He wanted to save from it. His perfect justness is not marred because He has not chosen to take upon Himself the punishments of every single person. This may be a scenario that we do not find very pleasant, but then God doesn't find our sin very pleasant either. Dave Mielke, 613-726-0014 856 Grenon Avenue Ottawa, Ontario, Canada K2B 6G3