Path: utzoo!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!brutus.cs.uiuc.edu!jarthur!uci-ics!ucla-cs!smcnet!byoder From: byoder@smcnet.UUCP (Brian Yoder) Newsgroups: comp.edu Subject: Re: CS education Message-ID: <471@smcnet.UUCP> Date: 22 Dec 89 04:39:11 GMT References: <479@intelisc.nosun.UUCP> <7474@hubcap.clemson.edu> <1989Dec21.051715.1574@cs.psu.edu> Organization: Santa Monica College Telecom, Santa Monica, CA. Lines: 106 In article <1989Dec21.051715.1574@cs.psu.edu>, bralick@cs.psu.edu (Will Bralick) writes: > In article <462@smcnet.UUCP> byoder@smcnet.UUCP (Brian Yoder) writes: > >In article <1989Dec18.042005.19231@psuvax1.cs.psu.edu>, bralick@psuvax1.cs.psu.edu (Will Bralick) writes: > >> In article <7474@hubcap.clemson.edu> billwolf%hazel.cs.clemson.edu@hubcap.clemson.edu writes: > > > >> | education truly free, in the sense that one can pursue education > >> | according to one's own interests > >> > >> But everyone is sure to pursue their own interests, anyway. > > > >They can't if they are in a straightjacket curriculum and can't choose > >an alternate school. Don't get me wrong on the issue of loose vs. tight > >curricular requirements. I think that if anything, today's curricula > >are too lenient in that they don't REALLY require students to learn anything. > > When I went to school (K-12), I was not spending my every waking moment > on schoolwork. I daresay today's students aren't either. In the > students' free time they will pursue their own interests -- that seems > axiomatic to me. What I was talking about was pursuing the interests associated with getting an education. I am also not talking about giving the students a choice of whether they would like to do less work than normal. What about the student who really wants to learn and does so quickly? He still has to waste time reviewing information that has already been digested. I also seem to remember spending three weeks in high school learning about what the relationships between price, demand, and availability of goods. I can't think of any way to spend more than about five minutes explaining it. The teacher just kept repeating the same material almost like some kind of mantra. That's a waste of time and prevented me from pursuing my interests (ie. learning about economics). I suppose the fact that the teacher didn't have any background in econ. didn't really help much either, she just finished reading the textbook herself. > The problem is that there are some that advocate turning the schools into > trade schools wherein one learns job skills and no bovine excrement like > history, literature, etc. I disagree. As do I. I guess it is a matter of priorities in part. Since schools don't do a very good job of teaching reading/writing and don't provide very good vocational training, it is not unreasonable to give these issues a higher priority. Than humanities. I suppose that the fact that humanities are almost universally poorly taught (IMHO) makes people want to see students spend less time on them. Personally, I was disgusted with history, literature, and philosophy during my school years. What I learned in class was that those are boring musty stupid subjects. After I graduated and had the time to explore the subjects on my own, I found that there are wonderful and exciting things to be learned in these areas. The interesting parts had been blotted out by textbook writers and boring teachers. We need to do a better job of teaching all of these, but if I had to concentrate, I'd make ABSOLUTELY sure that the basics and the sciences were taught properly. You can live without Plato, you can't live (well) without reading and math. > > Since when are students required to read a REAL book? (ie. not a text book) > > I read Tale of Two Cities, The Rime of the Ancient Mariner, Romeo and > Juliett, Fahrenhiet 451, etc. in 9th grade English class. These qualify > as real books, I think. Other courses (e.g. science, math, etc.) were, > of course, taught from textbooks. That's not too bad, it's more than most other schools I have heard about. Then again, it's not too good when you consider that you are talking about 4 books in 16 (?) years. Were all of those done in your 9th grade year? If so that sounds like you got one good class out of the whole experience (isn't it interesting that you still remember that class? What about your 8th grade english class? Could this be a key?). > >I don't believe that for a minute. That might be an adequate excuse (though > >certainly not much of a comfort to the people whose lives are miserable > >because the the 13 years of 30 hours/week they didn't learn to read. At > >least they have a (worthless) diploma. > > Huh? I am saying that schools in 30 hours/week cannot overcome the > influence of the environment the student lives in. If the environment > is anti-intellectual and/or anti-education, then the student will > likely have a negative attitude towards school. The student's peers > are particularly important here. Granted that makes it tough to teach these kids, but how can anyone justify passing them from grade to grade without any learning taking place? If they don't learn the alphabet by they time they are 15 they should still be in first grade. What does a diploma represent if it doesn't indicate that the student learned anything, but rather "put his time in". Clear objective standards for evaluation of performance should be enforced all along the way. Has anyone here read anything written by a guy named "Keller" who advocated testing be used to regulate movement between classes rather than time? I read a few things by and about him many years ago and it really seemed to make sense at the time. > >That's why changes need to come from the outside. Does > >anyone honestly expect for the NEA to allow evaluation of the effectiveness > >of it's members? Not on your life. > > I agree, now about the direction of change ... That sounds like it deserves a new thread....After Christmas! Merry Christmas, Brian -- -<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>- | Brian Yoder | answers *byoder(); | | uunet!ucla-cs!smcnet!byoder | He takes no arguments and returns the answers | -<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-