Path: utzoo!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!mailrus!uwm.edu!psuvax1!bralick From: bralick@cs.psu.edu (Will Bralick) Newsgroups: comp.edu Subject: Re: CS education Message-ID: Date: 28 Dec 89 19:04:30 GMT References: <479@intelisc.nosun.UUCP> <7474@hubcap.clemson.edu> <1989Dec21.051715.1574@cs.psu.edu> <471@smcnet.UUCP> Organization: Self Similar Lines: 130 In article <471@smcnet.UUCP> byoder@smcnet.UUCP (Brian Yoder) writes: | In article <1989Dec21.051715.1574@cs.psu.edu>, bralick@cs.psu.edu (Will Bralick) writes: | > | > When I went to school (K-12), I was not spending my every waking moment | > on schoolwork. I daresay today's students aren't either. In the | > students' free time they will pursue their own interests -- that seems | > axiomatic to me. | | What I was talking about was pursuing the interests associated with getting | an education. So was I. The pursuit of one's educational interests can certainly be conducted (augmented) outside of class. I think that it is clear that if a person is interested in something then they will work on it on their own time, whereas something with which one is unfamiliar or uninterested will not be pursued without some external motivation. Students will pursue their _perceived_ interests without external motivation. | ... | I also seem to remember | spending three weeks in high school learning about what the relationships | between price, demand, and availability of goods. I can't think of any | way to spend more than about five minutes explaining it. The teacher | just kept repeating the same material almost like some kind of mantra. | That's a waste of time and prevented me from pursuing my interests (ie. | learning about economics). So the teacher spent 50 minutes per day, five days per week, for three weeks regurgitating material from the textbook. I suspect that this is an oversimplification, but we can let that pass. Even so, you have wasted 750 minutes (12.5 hours). I doubt that that was the _only_ time you wasted during that three weeks. I would be surprised to learn that you watched _no_ television, played _no_ video/pinball games, etc. I don't excuse the teacher from her poor performance, but I doubt whether most teenagers if _given_ 750 minutes would find anything more productive to do with the time. | > The problem is that there are some that advocate turning the schools into | > trade schools wherein one learns job skills and no bovine excrement like | > history, literature, etc. I disagree. | | As do I. I guess it is a matter of priorities in part. Since schools don't | do a very good job of teaching reading/writing and don't provide very good | vocational training, it is not unreasonable to give these issues a | higher priority. Than humanities. I was with you up to the "vocational training" part. The one area where our secondary schools seem to have some success is in turning out is auto mechanics, carpenters, secretaries, etc. IMHO it should be the _last_ priority of the secondary school to train a student for a trade. The first priority should be to teach the basic skills (reading, writing, mathematics, computer skills, library skills, thinking skills, a foreign language, etc.) necessary for the student to pursue a lifetime of learning (i.e. the pursuit of their own interests), the second should be to produce a literate, informed electorate, and once those two missions are accomplished, the student can then be trained in life skills (how to balance a check book, why one shouldn't borrow for consumption, how to prepare meals, change diapers, etc.), and then finally one (or several) trades. | ... | if I had to concentrate, I'd make ABSOLUTELY sure that the basics | and the sciences were taught properly. We agree. Basics first. Ideally these are taught _before_ secondary school. Parents, the primary and middle schools have all failed to provide students who are prepared for secondary education. This is a more serious problem than whether little Johnny is bored with Dickens. | > > Since when are students required to read a REAL book? (ie. not a text book) | > | > I read Tale of Two Cities, The Rime of the Ancient Mariner, Romeo and | > Juliett, Fahrenhiet 451, etc. in 9th grade English class. These qualify | > as real books, I think. Other courses (e.g. science, math, etc.) were, | > of course, taught from textbooks. | | That's not too bad, it's more than most other schools I have heard about. | Then again, it's not too good when you consider that you are talking | about 4 books in 16 (?) years. Were all of those done in your 9th | grade year? If so that sounds like you got one good class out of the | whole experience (isn't it interesting that you still remember that | class? What about your 8th grade english class? Could this be a key?). Actually, I picked on 9th grade because I remembered the class and the teacher. I had other good reading experiences in my other years, too. I participated in a reading group in the 7th and 8th grades on Saturday mornings at my elementary school, etc. By the time I reached 10th grade, I was pretty well read. However, I find that I have a long way to go to catch up to where I _should_ be, since I have only been reading technical stuff (except for a few (required!) breadth courses in undergraduate studies) during the last decade or so. | > Huh? I am saying that schools in 30 hours/week cannot overcome the | > influence of the environment the student lives in. If the environment | > is anti-intellectual and/or anti-education, then the student will | > likely have a negative attitude towards school. The student's peers | > are particularly important here. | | Granted that makes it tough to teach these kids, but how can anyone | justify passing them from grade to grade without any learning taking place? I certainly don't. I think we agree far more than we disagree. The educational establishment has been more concerned with the students' psycho-social development than their educational development for several years. Trying to keep children with their "peer" group instead of flunking them (when they deserve it). | > >That's why changes need to come from the outside. Does | > >anyone honestly expect for the NEA to allow evaluation of the effectiveness | > >of it's members? Not on your life. | > | > I agree, now about the direction of change ... | | That sounds like it deserves a new thread....After Christmas! I have suggested that Adler's Padeia Proposal provides a suitable model. Comments? Regards, -- Will Bralick | ... when princes think more of bralick@psuvax1.cs.psu.edu | luxury than of arms, they lose bralick@gondor.cs.psu.edu | their state. with disclaimer; use disclaimer; | - Niccolo Machiavelli