Path: utzoo!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!mailrus!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!usc!brutus.cs.uiuc.edu!psuvax1!bralick From: bralick@cs.psu.edu (Will Bralick) Newsgroups: comp.edu Subject: Re: Education Message-ID: Date: 28 Dec 89 19:58:44 GMT References: <7519@hubcap.clemson.edu> Organization: Self Similar Lines: 146 In article <7519@hubcap.clemson.edu> billwolf%hazel.cs.clemson.edu@hubcap.clemson.edu writes: | From bralick@cs.psu.edu (Will Bralick): | > | > It _is_ relevant to their interest for them to study history. It may | > not be _pleasurable_ (at least initially), but it is in their interest. | | If that were true, then they would choose it voluntarily. If they don't know about it -- they won't choose it. Some people believe in the "rational economic man" as an oversimplified model of human decision-making. Such people think that _all_ people _always_ make informed, rational decisions. Children are least likely to know what is good for them in the long run. | > Humanities may not be immediately gratifying, but they are not | > "irrelevant" to the student's interests. How is one supposed to | > be aware that certain "fields" even exist without having been | > exposed to them? | | Simple... expose them to the library instead. Waste their time in a _library_?? Don't you mean a technical library where they can focus their every moment on their career (which they chose when they were six)? Or are you perhaps admitting that school should teach something _more_ than material strictly germane to their future careers? Be careful here or you will have to agree with that and we can then start discussing the "correct" mix of career and general education appropriate to their education. | > The lifelong learning is something one does on one's own -- not for | > a certificate that makes one more competitive for that raise. | | Hey, Will, there's a typo in the above sentence... the "not" | needs to be removed... :-| -- I'm deadly serious Serious and misguided. We will just have to agree to disagree. Speaking of money, I am still waiting for your measures of success on that financial fast-track: how much? how fast? and how many people agree with that assessment? If you could cite the study you're using it would probably help... | > At what age is an individual encouraged to choose his profession? | | As soon as possible, since knowing your objective will keep | you from having to take randomly selected courses while the | objective is still being determined. This is getting amusing. You might find it hard to imagine, but peoples' interests shift around while they are young. Some few children lock onto a particular field and/or speciality very early in life, but generally interests change. Your prescription is intellectual poison. | > | I ask only that we set up such a system and let it freely compete | > | with the "traditional" bullshit-laden system; the free market will | > | provide conclusive evidence of what is best. Well, Bill, in the free marketplace of ideas nobody's buying this one. You and I both advocate a change from the status quo. We will both need to convince the voting public that our ideas will result in a better product. You are trying to produce a better robot, uh, worker; I am trying to produce a literate citizen who can pursue a lifetime of learning. Notice how a non-technical skill: argumentation, becomes important in a citizen's later life. We will also be drawing on research performed in the social sciences and philosophy to answer important questions as we proceed in this argument. Your assertions that thus-and-such will be better, or that the market will prove which is better are merely assertions - unproven and unprovable except at the cost of some experimental group's education. | > Let me see if I can explain this one last time. It is not simply | > an economic question. This individual is not just being trained for | > a job. This individual will also be a voter and possibly a parent. | | Severely retarded persons are legally empowered to vote; if | there are to be any voting requirements, they must be consistently | imposed upon the entire voting population. I didn't say that a HS diploma is a _requirement_ for voting, did I? It (supposedly) doesn't have to be in a society which _requires_ K-12 education. | Courses on parenting are a good example of how educators could | offer courses which might well be taken VOLUNTARILY, and further | efforts by educators along these lines are to be encouraged. Agreed. | > This individual cannot predict the exact course of his future, and | > so would be ill-served by being turned into an over-specialized | > barbarian. This individual needs general tools from which he can | > specialize when necessary. | | I have absolutely no objection to leaving "generalization" programs | as an OPTION. The reality is that employers want *specialists* -- So they should train them. You are interested in subsidizing business, then. If a business can't make it on its own in the marketplace, why should the taxpayers subsidize them by taking over their training for them? So should the students be trained in the IBM (the _right_ way) way of developing software or some other methodology? In other words which company do you think should be given the subsidy? | they will even ask for ten years' experience in an area which has | only existed for five!! Recent articles in misc.jobs.misc A _great_ source of anecdotal information, which _can_ be pursuasive, but not this time (and certainly not from that source :-). | have | detailed the great troubles which befall those who have naively | followed the claims of educators regarding generalization as a | virtue. Duh. The virtue lies not only in being adaptable in the marketplace but in the entire breadth and scope of one's life. You will never (in this forum) admit to a person being a person rather than just (and solely) a worker. Fine. Your view of humankind must also be sold in the marketplace of ideas. Good luck. | Thus, the free market will slam graduates of generalist | programs flat on their faces even more strongly as the specialized | competition intensifies. Unsupported conjecture. | It's sad that some students are naive | enough to listen to such advice from people who largely possess | no non-academic professional experience whatsoever, but they do | wind up eventually paying the price and learning their lesson. And if they listened to your advice they wouldn't graduate from HS. So now you have taken your unsupported conjecture and drawn a nice conclusion from it. Sophistry. Regards, -- Will Bralick | ... when princes think more of bralick@psuvax1.cs.psu.edu | luxury than of arms, they lose bralick@gondor.cs.psu.edu | their state. with disclaimer; use disclaimer; | - Niccolo Machiavelli