Path: utzoo!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!clyde.concordia.ca!uunet!mailrus!ames!uhccux!dunn From: dunn@uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edu (John Dunn) Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth Subject: Re: Forth Popularity Message-ID: <5858@uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edu> Date: 29 Dec 89 21:15:10 GMT References: <8912282253.AA10230@jade.berkeley.edu> <5851@uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edu> Reply-To: dunn@uhccux.UUCP (John Dunn) Organization: University of Hawaii Lines: 46 In article peter@ficc.uu.net (Peter da Silva) writes: >> Forth is the language of choice if you are doing creative programming. > >Only if you define "creative programming" as "small cute hacks that amuse >other Forth programmers". > >And personally, I think Logo, Lisp or Smalltalk are better choices for that. >The only advantage Forth has over Lisp and Smalltalk is that you can build a >reasonably fast system that'll run in very little memory. > >Yes, I've been there. It's great for inspiration. But once you have gotten >past that first idea and want to *do* something with it, you need better >tools. Sure, you *can* carve a figurine with a cold chisel... There have been large, sophisticated applications written in Forth, ay as you have read here on the net. My own Lumena for Time Arts Inc. is also one such. Probably the most successful of the large scale professional imaging packages, definitely not a "small cute hack". The problem with Forth is when you need to go to version 2, and now your successful application has a programming team of competent, but not overly creative people: the usual case in the commercial software world. That's when it's time to look at the original Forth program as a blueprint, to be rewritten in C, as it is expanded upon for the (by now) known customer base. I have prototyped in Lisp, and with the object overlay, Flavors. As logical constructs I like them even better than Forth - but as you say, the prototype built on these systems looks and feels nothing like the finished product. Forth is the only language I know of that you can work in creative mode, and then wrap it up as a shippable product; and then worry about the programming team only if the product merits a 2nd version. For large memory applications, as opposed to embedded systems, I have had no trouble with the LMI 386 UR/Forth that runs in protected mode with Phar Lapp's VMM. It is every bit a large-resource language. My point is that Forth, by its very nature is and will always be a non-popular language. So what? I'd rather be in my home studio programming my own creations in Forth than in a cubical in Microsoft programming in C. Forth really *is* an elitist language. The good part of that is anyone who has the self motivation to break out of the mold can be part of the elite. The good old American dream, ya know? John Dunn