Path: utzoo!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!rutgers!usc!ucla-cs!srt
From: srt@maui.cs.ucla.edu (Scott Turner)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc
Subject: Re: Now that the smoke had cleared (Honest Mac/IBM questions)
Message-ID: <30295@shemp.CS.UCLA.EDU>
Date: 30 Dec 89 02:28:13 GMT
References: <1284@marlin.NOSC.MIL> <970@v7fs1.UUCP> <129727@sun.Eng.Sun.COM> <30290@shemp.CS.UCLA.EDU> <129740@sun.Eng.Sun.COM>
Sender: news@CS.UCLA.EDU
Reply-To: srt@cs.ucla.edu (Scott Turner)
Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department
Lines: 59

Ulp.  I never really intended to get dragged into this silly Mac vs. IBM
debate.  It is such a misguided discussion.  But this guy MacRae keeps 
saying interesting things?  What's a boy to do?  Post, of course... :-)

In article <129740@sun.Eng.Sun.COM> acm@sun.UUCP (Andrew MacRae) writes:
>So I do not know the 'correct' Mac answer to your questions.  I do know
>many Mac users though, and none of them have ever expressed a frustration
>at being unable to follow the chain of actions you describe.  This is because
>they use their Macs *differently* than we use our PCs.

Partly that's because the Mac environment doesn't encourage them to
think in that way.  The idea of piping information through a series of
programs is such an alien thought to the Mac environment that it will
never occur to most *novice* Mac users.  (It is an idea that occurs to
most DOS/Unix users, though, which is interesting.  Maybe because of the
stream-oriented input and output of that environment.)

The emphasis here is on "novice".  I have had very frustrated Mac
users come to me with problems of the sort mentioned in the earlier
posts (need to pipe, find files in the file structure and so on).  The
reason the problem isn't more obvious is that a *novice* user doesn't
usually have it.  It is only after gaining a certain level of
proficiency that a user begins to look for these things.

I'm not going to discuss the novice vs. expert user distinction, except
to say that I think the Mac is better for the novice, and restricting to
the expert.

>Most of us have found that it is indeed harder to program for the Mac and
>other systems of its kind.  But the difficulty we go through (in theory)
>is what makes it easier for the end user.

But that's true on any OS, of course.  Put more effort into the programs
you develop, and they'll be easier for the end-user to use.

And call me a techno-dweeb, but I'm not a big fan of this "ignorant
masses as the target user of computers" idea.  *My* idea of an "end
user" is someone like myself.  He's computer literate, types very
well, programs nearly as much as he uses applications, and so on.
That's not exactly descriptive of the "average" user in today's
culture, but I think that's where the computer culture is headed.  Not
towards the "everyone uses really neat applications but hardly anyone
programs" culture that seems so prevalent an attitude.  Look around
you.  *Everyone* technical programs, and that's spreading to the rest
of the society.  A machine that doesn't cater (one way or the other)
to a literate, programming end-user is doomed in the long run.

>BTW: I suppose you already have your deposit made on the new Jaguar 220?
>     Can break 200 mph and costs only $576,000  :)

I took my MGB in to the Jaguar dealer and said "If I use this as a deposit,
how much will I owe on a 220?".  He looked my car over and said "About
$576,000."  :-)


 
    Scott R. Turner
    UCLA Computer Science     "One more reason to hate California"
    Domain: srt@cs.ucla.edu