Path: utzoo!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!clyde.concordia.ca!uunet!samsung!brutus.cs.uiuc.edu!jarthur!polyslo!news From: news@polyslo.CalPoly.EDU (News Guru) Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc Subject: Re: Now that the smoke had cleared (slightly long) Keywords: Programmers are not the primary market for small Message-ID: <1989Dec30.195240.4854@polyslo.CalPoly.EDU> Date: 30 Dec 89 19:52:40 GMT References: <1284@marlin.NOSC.MIL> <970@v7fs1.UUCP> <129727@sun.Eng.Sun.COM> <30290@shemp.CS.UCLA.EDU> <129740@sun.Eng.Sun.COM> <30295@shemp.CS.UCLA.EDU> Reply-To: tdrinkar@cosmos.acs.calpoly.edu.UUCP (Terrell Drinkard) Organization: Cal Poly State University -- San Luis Obispo Lines: 92 computers From: tdrinkar@cosmos.acs.calpoly.edu (Terrell Drinkard) Path: cosmos.acs.calpoly.edu!tdrinkar srt@cs.ucla.edu (Scott Turner) writes: acm@sun.UUCP (Andrew MacRae) writes: >>I do >>know many Mac users though, and none of them have ever expressed a >>frustration at being unable to follow the chain of actions you >>describe. This because they use their Macs *differently* than we >>use our PCs. This is true. I have some experience on PC's as well, and I've never found a need to do an awk or a grep or to stream the output of my spreadsheet to my paint program. Color me a novice I guess. >>Most of us have found that it is indeed harder to program for the Mac >>and other systems of its kind. But the difficulty we go through (in >>theory) is what makes it easier for the end user. > >But that's true on any OS, of course. Put more effort into the >programs you develop, and they'll be easier for the end-user to use. This must be one of those 'in theory' things. I've used many different computer systems over the years (starting with a DEC Cyber) and have not noticed you 'advanced' programmers doing much work with us 'novice' users in mind. Ever use an editor on a mainframe? Then use one on a Mac? Even a PC? Power does not equate to usability. >And call me a techno-dweeb, but I'm not a big fan of this "ignorant >masses as the target user of computers" idea. *My* idea of an "end >user" is someone like myself. He's computer literate, types very I won't even go into the obvious gender bias you show here :-) but I will take you up on your offer. You, sir, are a techno-dweeb. >well, programs nearly as much as he uses applications, and so on. >That's not exactly descriptive of the "average" user in today's >culture, but I think that's where the computer culture is headed. Not Another opinion, one you are entitled to I suppose, but incorrect. It has as much real world correspondence as the theory that the world is flat. Just how many brilliant computer science types do you think are going into the world these days? Enough to subsidize all of your wonderful micro-computer advances? Not likely. It is the great unwashed like myself, just trying to get a job done, who are paying for all these neato boxes. Not you and those like you. >towards the "everyone uses really neat applications but hardly anyone >programs" culture that seems so prevalent an attitude. Look around >you. *Everyone* technical programs, and that's spreading to the rest Apparently the thought that there might be other users of computers besides 'technical' people has not occured to you. My mother is writing a book, and bless her sweet soul, she hasn't even got an idea as what programming might include, but she can get what she wants done on a computer. Easily. I know several graphic designers who don't program a lick, yet they are definite computer users. I know an architect who can't even do 'hello world' in basic, yet he would not be without his computer. Same for draftsmen (I know a couple) who do work in AutoCAD, none of them can program. I know several school teachers who use computers to keep track of grades and attendance, but who don't program. These people all tend to use (and I quote) "really neat applications." I understand the price of Folgers will be rising in the near future. >of the society. A machine that doesn't cater (one way or the other) >to a literate, programming end-user is doomed in the long run. You seem like the mechanic who is deploring the lack of mechanical adeptness of the local automobile drivers. Sorry, the days of the all powerful computer guru dictating how and when the machines will be used is over. There will always be hotrod machines for you to play with, but it is *that* kind of machine that is 'doomed', not those that cater to the user. After all, we outnumber you. :-) > Scott R. Turner > UCLA Computer Science "One more reason to hate California" > Domain: srt@cs.ucla.edu If you are refering to your attitude, I agree. Just one more refreshing opinion brought to you courtesy of- the Rockman Disclaimer et la Signaturo: Hell no, I'm not responsible for what I say! If everyone were responsible for what they said, we'd have had a balanced budget in 1984.