Xref: utzoo comp.sys.ibm.pc:41026 comp.sys.mac:45322 Path: utzoo!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!mailrus!uunet!samsung!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!purdue!haven!mimsy!tove.umd.edu!folta From: folta@tove.umd.edu (Wayne Folta) Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc,comp.sys.mac Subject: Re: Now that the smoke had cleared (Honest Mac/IBM questions) Summary: Posted a second time to hit both mac and PC groups Message-ID: <21580@mimsy.umd.edu> Date: 2 Jan 90 17:01:58 GMT References: <1284@marlin.NOSC.MIL> <2701@aecom.yu.edu> <629@vice2utc.chalmers.se> Sender: news@mimsy.umd.edu Reply-To: folta@tove.umd.edu (Wayne Folta) Distribution: usa Organization: U of Maryland, Dept. of Computer Science, Coll. Pk., MD 20742 Lines: 102 "" 1. Activate something out of sight (in a sub-folder). " Double clicking an object activates its application. I have a "lot of dummy files strewn in sub-folders to accomplish this purpose. "Another way is to double-click an existing real file, and then close it "and continue. It's clumsy, but intuitive (more the former). The Mac is document-oriented, not application-oriented (I think). Thus, you create folders with documents in them, and when you want to process a document, you do not worry about running the appropriate application, you open the document, and the Mac OS automatically runs the correct application for you. This is usually quick and intuitive. But it can create problems (as described above) when you first create your folder hierarchy, as you often have to place a couple of empty documents around in order to conveniently bring up a given application. In Mac OS 7.0, you will be able to place applications in the Apple Menu (like Desk Accessories presently) and access them with one menu selection. (Desk Accesories are much like TSRs--always present--without the problems that I have heard that TSRs have in terms of conflicts. The Apple Menu is always present at the far left of the menu bar, and you pull this menu down to access Desk Accessories.) "" 2. Copy something out of sight to the current or another directory. " You don't. Even worse, if you're in a subdirectory, sorry - "folder, and you switch to another drive, and switch back, it returns you "to root, not from where you started. I guess my question would be, "For what reason are you doing this copy?" The reason I ask is that your stated goal (the copy) is difficult on the Mac. But if that goal is simply a substep in a larger goal, maybe the Mac can accomplish the larger goal with different substeps. For example, maybe you want to copy the file to the current directory in order to edit the copy, using the original as a template. On some systems, the most logical way would be to copy the file with a command (say, "cp ../../templates/memos/status status11") and then to edit the file. On the Mac, one would be prone to start up the word processor, use the "Open" menu to select the template file, then use "Save As" to save the new copy to the current directory. Same idea, a little more work (unless you have a hard time remembering file names, in which case the Mac Open File dialog, which shows you the file names, might save you time over guessing and misspelling the file name), but quite different approach. Still, a Command Line Interface is better suited to this type of "random file access" than an iconic interface. > >> 3. Redirect the output from one program to another as input; example: >> prompt>awk -f fil.awk this | awk -f fix.awk >> that > The clipboard. This is painful. Yeachhhhh..... > In fact most applications don't think in terms of input and >output, they think in terms of "events," some of which might come from >the keyboard... Well, for programmers, Apple has a UNIX-like development (MPW) which has pipes, redirects, and filters. Again, though, it depends on what you want to do. For instance, in UNIX you use pipes to do spell checking, which is built into most wordprocessors on PCs. The Mac OS doesn't really have the concept of filters, such as AWK. I really miss AWK, LEX, SED, etc., on the Mac. > >> 4. Write batch files(i.e. is there any highlevel, simple programming >> feature in the Mac OS?) Depends on what you want to do. If you want to string together filters, or manipulate files, nope. If you want to, say, write a nifty little application, HyperCard might fit the bill. I don't think any CLI systems really have the equivalent of HyperCard, which allows you to throw together programs in a fairly simple (certainly as simple or simpler than sh or csh) language, complete with graphical interface, sound, etc. Note that programming languages, like on the PC, have built-in make-like abilities, which compile and link appropriate routines based on dependencies, if that is what you wish. And MPW provides shell scripting ability. [referring to batch files...] > In other words, if you need a yes or no answer, the sane answer >would probably be "No." It's closer to "not really," or "not as you know them." ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I think this is the key here. To accomplish a task, there may be several ways. If you try to translate a UNIX way directly to the Mac, lottsa' luck. But you may be able to accomplish the same thing in a quite different way, but just as easily. The important thing is the goal which you are trying to accomplish, and different interaction paradigms may require different intermediate steps. None-the-less, the beauty of UNIX is (and was) the idea of small filters being tied together with pipes and file redirection with shell scripts replacing user typing. Even today this is elegant, and many systems (such as DOS) have borrowed many of the same concepts. For many tasks, the CLI is great. I use UNIX by day and Mac OS by night, and I am happy with both. (Actually, I have misspoken here when I say "Mac OS". What we are really discussing is the "Finder", which is the equivalent of sh or csh, a command shell.) -- Wayne Folta (folta@cs.umd.edu 128.8.128.8)