Path: utzoo!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!mailrus!shadooby!samsung!think!mintaka!mit-eddie!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: jelkind@garnet.berkeley.edu (The Unexpected Tiger) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Talmud. Message-ID: Date: 19 Dec 89 06:16:04 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: University of California, Berkeley Lines: 64 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu First, I'd like to respond to the original poster. From the article itself, it was pretty clear that the author only has a minimal knowledge of the Talmud and probably none at all of Hebrew or Aramaic. I say this because of the poster's strange remarks about the Palestinian vs. Babylonian Talmud. Before getting any actual copy of the Talmud, I *strongly* recommend that you read "The Essential Talmud" by Adin Steinsaltz. If I'm wrong, I'd recommend that you ask the people at the "Yeshivah High School", Atlanta's Jewish parochial school, who might be able to help you. The only complete translation that I know of is the Soncino, which is mediocre at best. Steinsaltz has started his own, but I don't know anything about its quality. You can get a good quality (if not folio-sized) talmud in the original for about $150. I'd also like to followup to some of the things that Mike Siemon said in a recent article. >Actually, the Mishnah is the basic "code" or "kernel" of Jewish oral law. >It was promulgated by a circle of rabbis in Galilee in the 2nd century C.E. >The Talmud is essentially an exegesis and commentary on the Mishnah, and >there are two Talmuds, the Palestinian (or Yerushalemi) and the slightly >later (and substantially larger) Babylonian Talmud. These grew up in the >20 years or so [sic] following the promulgation of the Mishnah. The Mishnah was completed early in the third century C.E. The material itself goes back as far as the first century B.C.E., with some even earlier stuff. But the discussions in the academies did not stop there. The discussions of the Palestinian academies were put down in writing around 400 C.E., and form the "Palestinian" (Yerushalmi) Talmud. The Babylonian Talmud was redacted about 200 years later. Because it is later and much more carefully edited, the Babylonian Talmud is considered to be more authoritative in matters of Jewish jurisprudence. >The Mishnah is quite elliptical and often very cryptic and condensed; it >would not be a good idea for a Christian to read it without substantial >aid from Jewish sources. I agree totally with this. Mishnah is difficult to study out of context, and Talmud is even harder. It's not like a history book or the Bible that you can just pick up and read. It's meant to be studied in a certain kind of way that, frankly, only works when you do it in the original. I say this as someone who has in fact tried it both ways. >[recommendations of books by Jacob Neusner]. . . Neusner is a respected >scholar and a prolific writer. I doubt that Orthodox Jews think highly of >him, but I would recommend his works as a sympathetic and easy entry into >the world of Jewish religious thought. Although I am an "Orthodox" Jew, the reason that I do not think highly of his work is not that he is not Orthodox. The reason that I do not think highly of his work is that his scholarship is LOUSY. (Sorry Mike; I would not normally disagree with your postings because they are usually in areas where you are much more expert than I am, but I suspect that this may not be one of those.) I'm not the only one who thinks his scholarship is lousy. At one scholaraly conference, his own ex-adviser was passing out material criticizing his scholarship! He tends to miss the point of a lot of what he writes about. I have seen one text of his (intended for junior high school students) called "Learn Mishnah". I remember one Mishnah he teaches, one that I happen to have learned in Bava Metsiah. He explains the Mishnah in the exact opposite fashion that the Gemara does! In short, I would be very suspicious of *any* work by Neusner. Take my advice: go with the Steinsaltz, and if you really want to learn the material, learn Hebrew. Richard Schultz