Path: utzoo!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: nunes@ai.toronto.edu (Joe Nunes) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Random thoughts on free will, etc. Message-ID: Date: 19 Dec 89 06:18:44 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: Department of Computer Science, University of Toronto Lines: 27 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu [Alexander Macalalad proposed that predestination implies God is responsible for our sin. Peter Cash responded that the fact that God knows what we are going to do does not imply he is responsible for it. >Just because God foresaw Adam's fall does not imply that God wanted >Adam to fall. In any case, why do you think that God wanted Adam to fall? >This certainly seems false to me. --clh] Yes, but God created Adam *knowing* that he would fall. Let us call our present universe, universe A. Since God is omnipotent he could have created a slightly different universe (call it B), which would differ from A in one respect: Adam would have a more obedient character, and would not fall from grace. Note that in both A and B, Adam has *exactly* the same "amount" of free will -- he is not a puppet. If God could not have created a universe such as B, then He is not omnipotent. If He could have created such a universe, but didn't, then he *chose* A over B. Therefore, he must have wanted Adam to fall. >>Conversely, if He is not responsible in >>some sense for our sin, then how is it possible for us to resist His >>will and do something other than what He intended? > >God intended for Adam *not* to fall. But because God made a man and not a >puppet, the door was open for Adam to sin if he wished. Again: God is omniscient; He *knew* Adam would fall. God is omnipotent; He could have created Adam so that he still had free will, but would not fall.