Path: utzoo!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: bgsuvax!kutz@cis.ohio-state.edu (Kenneth J. Kutz) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Two types of Faith - Was Once Saved Always Saved Message-ID: Date: 23 Dec 89 05:02:57 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: Bowling Green State University B.G., Oh. Lines: 68 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu I would like to state as a precursor to this article that I believe no person can take any credit whatsoever for his or her salvation. It is a gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast. At the same time, the Bible does give us tests to see whether our salvation is real or self deception. > What James describes is a faith of knowledge only. We would say that it is not > faith at all. The germans have a good phrase for 'believe in,' namely 'glauben > an', which literally is 'believe on'. Faith is believing on Jesus, relying on > him for salvation. The demons do not do this. But in Luke 8:13 Jesus said: > "Those on the rock are ones who receive the word with joy..." The demons do > not receive the word of God with joy! Nor is this a faith of knowledge only, > but a faith involving joy. A person who dies in such a faith is surely saved. I agree that a person who dies with faith in Christ's redemptive work and substitionary sacrifice is surely saved. The question is: did the the people in view in Luke 8:13, die with saving faith. I believe the passage describes people who come to the knowledge of the truth (yes, even gladly at first) but when their first test of whether or not that faith is genuine comes along, it proves to be dead faith. "Those on the bedrock are people who hear the word and welcome it gladly, but they have no root; they believe for a while and in time of trial they fall away." We know two "bad" things about these people in view. (1) The believe for a while (implies this belief ends) (2) In the time of trial they fall away There are many scriptures which indicate that a true believer in Christ, one that is born again, does not fall away or discontinue their belief, but rather "endures to the end" (Heb 10:38-39, Heb 6:4-6,9). The book of First John is an excellent book to read if one wishes to determine whether or not their faith is real (genuine, alive). John writes: "They went out from us but they never belonged to us; for had they been ours, they would have remained with us." 1 John 2:19 Listen to what he says in this same chapter: "If what you heard from the beginning stays with you, then you will remain in union with the Son and with the Father. And this is what He Himself has promised us, eternal life." 1 John 2:24b-25 James first test of legitimate, living faith is the test of trials. This is what he says: "Blessed is the man who stands up under trial; for when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love Him." I believe that the people who base the reality of their salvation on the fact that at one point in time they "heard the word and welcomed it gladly" are in danger of being deceived. Yes justification is by faith alone which is a gift of God. The Bible lists the qualites and characteristics of that faith. "Falling away" isn't in the list. "Endurance to the end" is. -- Kenneth J. Kutz Internet kutz@andy.bgsu.edu Systems Programmer BITNET KUTZ@BGSUOPIE University Computer Services UUCP ...!osu-cis!bgsuvax!kutz Bowling Green State Univ. US Mail 238 Math Science, BG OH 43403