Path: utzoo!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!mailrus!wuarchive!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!ucsd!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: rit!cs!ritcv!iav1917@cs.rochester.edu (alan i. vymetalik) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Some thoughts on "Christian Music" (was Re: Petra Praise) Message-ID: Date: 25 Dec 89 06:30:46 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: Rochester Institute of Technology, Rochester, NY Lines: 247 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu In article <12554@cbnews.ATT.COM> ajw@cbnews.ATT.COM (andrew.j.whitman) writes: >Well, I'm going to go off on a tangent on the tangent . . . Please tangent! Part of the purpose of my original posting was to get people talking. I want to thank Andy for responding... >I've heard most of the groups/performers listed above, and, with the >exceptions of Kerry Livgren and (occasionally) Rez, I don't find much >to hold my interest. Lyrics aside, Christian music strikes me as >extremely derivative. You want Punk? Metal? Thrash? Pop? Progressive? >Christian music can give it to you, all done up to sound just like your >favorite "secular" group. And that's the problem. Sure, you can find >a Judas Priest clone singing about Jesus. But I find very little >innovation in that, even if, by some standards, the subject matter is >much more worthwhile. My original list of groups/artists was fairly selective. I tried to leave out the punk/metal/thrash derivatives that have done a good job to make the "Christian Music" genre become basically a muddled thing to listen to. I tend to find the general problems that Andy pointed out in his reply-posting in just about every area of music, past and present. I have extremely varied listening tastes when it comes to music. My collection swings from Duke Ellington to Jean-Luc Ponty to The Dregs; from Gentle Giant to Fairport Convention to Saga to Jethro Tull; from Yes to Genesis to Kansas; from Amy Grant to AD to Petra; from Dvorak to Mozart to Chopin; from Ravi Shankar to George Winston to William Ackerman; from Tangerine Dream to Mannheim Steamroller to Synergy; from Peter Gabriel to Suzanne Vega to Paul Simon; from Scottish Highland Bagpipes to African Percussion; from... well, you get the picture, hmm? I think what I was trying to drive at originally was to get people just a little bit interested in checking out the "good Christian Music" that does exist! Yes, there is trash everywhere. I don't deny it. I deplore it. Music has to be discovered and experienced by each individual in his or her own personal way. Yes, you're going to have to wade through some trash to find the gems. But, I sincerely believe that it's worth it. Check out AD's music or Kerry Livgren's solo albums. (Andy, you singled out this particular artist. Any particular reason? Don't base your answer on the fact that that Livgren and AD are some of my favorite musical artists regardless of the genre.) Here's a combination of progressive rock and orchestral-oriented sound with lyrics that actually have meaning and a purpose to them: to make you think about what's being sung. Livgren, as some of you may know from experience or my earlier postings on the subject, is the former lead keyboardist/guitarist/composer for Kansas who penned such classics as "Carry On Wayward Son," "Hold On," "Reason to Be," "Dust in the Wind," "Song for America," "Icarus-Borne on Wings of Steel," just to name a few. If you liked Kansas, you'll probably enjoy AD's music as well as the solo albums from Livgren. His latest, "One of Several Possible Musiks," is an all instrumental offering showing Livgren's talents on every single aspect of the album from composting to the playing of all of the instruments. He literally did everything except master the CD! That's talent... (with a little ego to boot, I suppose) >Much of my favorite music is "Christian" music - Bach's Christmas >Oratorio, albums from Ralph and Carter Stanley, the Louvin Brothers, >Bruce Cockburn, T-Bone Burnett. This is music that reaches me, time >after time. And one of the reasons that it reaches me is that it >sounds fresh, new - it doesn't sound like anything anybody else is >doing. And that's what I miss the most about the "Christian Music" >scene. Ah that's the key thing: Variety. Difference. Standing out from the crowd. Most of my previous posting dealt with Petra's music on their latest release. I didn't spend a lot of time dealing with the general (and very important) issues Andy is discussing here. I wish I had been more awake when I wrote the last posting... My reason to listen to the artists that I do is this aspect of "sounding fresh." I agree that it's very difficult to find "new" stuff in the Christian genre bins at your record store, but that shouldn't deter anyone from looking. >Personally, I'd like to see the term "Christian Music" done away with >entirely. I don't want to listen to "Christian Music." I usually >enjoy music made by Christians, but "Christian Music" leaves me cold. >"Christian Music" seems to alternate between the themes of "Come to >Jesus or you're gonna fry" and "I used to be a druggie but now I know >Jesus and I have a natural high." That, of course, is a generalization, >but it seems to fit the genre for the most part. Who would listen >to this stuff? Other Christians? Not me. It doesn't fit the reality >I know. Non-Christians? You've got to be joking. By the very nature >of the expression, this music consigns itself to a self-imposed ghetto. I will only disagree mildly here... Christian music, in general, IS listened to by Christians. The generalizations made by Andy are, for the most part, quite true. However, they are also mostly at the extremes of the genre. There is a lot of music "in the middle" that doesn't incessantly dwell on these topics. Grant, AD, Rez, DeCarmo and Key, Petra, Farrell and Farrell were some of the examples I used before. The music these artists produce are, at least for me, quite stimulating! I could listen to Grant's music for hours and put down the headphones and "actually feel good inside." I don't quite feel this way after listening to, say, Howard Jones, U2, or Jethro Tull. I feel invigorated in a way that, of course, centers on the religious aspect in my life. Other music affects me in different ways, depending on the music. However, it is the "faith reaffirmation" (I think that's what I am getting at) that is important to me. I "feel more alive religiously" after listening to some Petra or AD, for example, than spending a half-an-hour in a church. (Now, all you church-going folk... don't start flaming me about the importance of "church.") I agree with Andy when he says that the Christian music he described must consign "itself to a self-imposed ghetto." But, I want to re-iterate that there is still good music to be found. Just because there are several bad apples in a barrell, it doesn't mean that all of the apples are bad and that the whole barrell should be thrown out. >We could argue forever about whether the music expresses the "truth," >but the reality is that it is a "truth" that precious few people >would be willing to take the time to hear. I agree. I don't wish to argue about truth. I know of people who have found "truth" in a bottle of gin. I know of people who have found "truth" in drugs. I know of "truth" in hundreds of different forms. I cannot argue with these people, nor do I want to. Similarly, when it comes to music, each person must decide what is the "truth" for them. I am not exactly sure of the slant on "truth" Andy is alluding to, however, I will assume that he means that there is indeed truth to be found in Christian music. But, it's a truth so mired down in the crap mixed in that very few people would want to take the time. If so, I just want to say that I am not "out to save the whole world." If I interest just ONE person to dig through the sludge to find the "truthful" music, then I consider my job successful. >In contrast, I believe that there is some outstanding musical work >being done by musicians who happen to be Christians. Performers and >bands such as Bruce Cockburn, T-Bone Burnett, Peter Case, Talk Talk, >U2, Van Morrison, the Waterboys, Los Lobos, and Arlo Guthrie have >made and continue to make music that is infused with a Christian world >view, but which is willing to address the range of experiences that >seems to characterize life as most people know it - joy, sorrow, doubt, >despair, peace, contentment, work, family, relationships found and >lost, issues of the heart and issues that have global significance. >More power to them. It's more difficult music because it doesn't >offer a black and white solution to every problem. But, to me, it's >much more authentic music because it recognizes the struggles that >I face in trying to live out a life of faith. It just seems more real >to me. Reality is important. These artists and many more are important also. And, just for the reasons Andy has described. Yet, sometimes, many people needed to hear a "black and white solution" because sometimes that is the only way. Oftentimes, other solutions to problems can be the best route to take. I, too, have a tough time to trying to live a life of faith. I feel that life is sometimes too crazy to have my solution shown to me in "three simple steps." But, again, maybe that is the best approach to take. I don't know. I know that I'm imperfect and that no amount of analysis and explanation of my problems can override the solution I sometimes reach: simply hang it all on the Lord and let him help me. Is that a cop-out? No. "Jesus is not a crutch; he's a stretcher! You can't even limp into Heaven without Him." (Paraphrase of a Greg Volz concert comment, "Petra - Captured in Time and Space." But, I'm getting a bit far off the topic at hand... music. Listen to Amy Grant's "I Have Decided," as quick example of what I mean. >It might help to know that I don't really buy into this "Christian" vs. >"secular" framework. I don't believe that Christian music is >automatically good, and that secular music is automatically bad. (I >know you're not saying this, Alan, but I've encountered enough >Christians who believe it that I think it needs to be addressed.) I hope everyone has received the feeling that neither Andy nor I believe in this division of music. My original posting didn't take the time to explore this issue (hence, it's current cross-posting to Soc.Religion.Christian... I hope people don't mind too much), since my original posting was mainly a comment on Petra's "Petra Praise CD." >To the extent that Christian music promotes a selfish, materialistic >lifestyle (the "Jesus wants to bless you with Cadillacs and furs" style >of Jim and Tammy Bakker), then that music is bad. To the extent that >non-Christian music promotes respect for others and provides an impetus >to look beyond oneself, then that music is good. Most music is neither >good nor bad - it just is. "Most music is neither good nor bad - it just is." I couldn't have said it much better. So, I simply quoted you. >I'm interested in hearing music that challenges me to consider new >viewpoints, new ideas, and which forces me to evaluate those viewpoints >to see if there might be areas where I need to grow. I believe music >made by Christians can do that. I think music made by non-Christians >can also do that. The albums that have had the biggest impact on me >have done those very things. I'm always open for new suggestions. "Always keep an open mind, but not so open that you're brains fall out." I don't recall who said this, but I've always tried to follow it. For myself, I require "mental input" from a variety of sources. Many things have a significant impact on my thoughts and on what and who I am. Christian music and non-Christian music affects me in different and, sometimes, similar ways. For the most part, I am affected in positive and useful ways. Everyone must grow. Pulling in stimulus from all that life offers is a desirable thing. Sometimes, I get the answers that I need from talking to friends, praying, or from listening Christian and Non- Christian music. Sometimes, I just throw my hands up and say that I can't deal with it anymore. When that happens, I always try to start over by talking to friends, etc. >> "Go in His love..." >> >> Enjoy, >> alan >> > >Andy Whitman >AT&T Bell Laboratories, Columbus, Ohio >att!cblpn!ajw Thanks, Andy, for the chance to respond to your thoughts in your posting and for continuing to open this discussion. I can easily understand your feelings and opinins on the subjects we've just briefly chatted about. In some ways, I am glad I didn't go into too much detail in my first posting. That way I got you to respond and bring up ideas you may not have bothered to post at all. The net-waves are hear for people to express their views and feelings. Let's do it! Come on, everyone. Enjoy, alan -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Alan I. Vymetalik, 2244 East Avenue #5, Rochester, New York, 14610-2518 USA, Phone: (716)-271-8528 ...!rochester!ritcv!iav1917 -or- ...!rochester!rit!ritcv!iav1917 ritcv!iav1917@rochester.UUCP -or- iav1917%ritcv@cs.rit.edu /If I can't be reached via any of the above e-paths, please write./ =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=