Path: utzoo!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!mailrus!wuarchive!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!ucbvax!agate!eos!eugene
From: eugene@eos.UUCP (Eugene Miya)
Newsgroups: comp.graphics
Subject: Re: fractals as bad science
Message-ID: <5920@eos.UUCP>
Date: 5 Jan 90 16:50:34 GMT
References: <119.256E54C5@uscacm.UUCP> <1247@becker.UUCP> <9144@cbmvax.commodore.com> <6780@lindy.Stanford.EDU> <9215@cbmvax.commodore.com>
Reply-To: eugene@eos.UUCP (Eugene Miya)
Followup-To: poster
Organization: NASA Ames Research Center, Calif.
Lines: 75

In article <9215@cbmvax.commodore.com> mitchell@cbmvax.commodore.com (Fred Mitchell - PA) writes:
>In article <6780@lindy.Stanford.EDU> rick@hanauma.UUCP (Richard Ottolini) writes:
>>In article <9144@cbmvax.commodore.com> mitchell@cbmvax.commodore.com (Fred Mitchell - PA) writes:
>>>As for explaining the mechanism of certain phenomena, it can give fantastic
>>>insights.
>>B.S. 
>Cough.

I side with Rick on this one.

>>Fractals, if a valid measure of nature, say how LITTLE information
>>there is.

>Seems like a matter of semantics, to me. The old "Half full" or "Half empty"
>approach.

I've used this argument before. Okay then let's say we are at 0.5 of capacity.
It is not a matter of semantics in this case.  See below.

>>Mitchell appears to be jumbling several types of "new age" mathematics--
>>complexity theory, chaos theory, fractals

>The "jumbling" as you call it, was intentional. I was not trying to say
>anything specific- just that we should keep an open mind and look for
>relationships where we normally wouldn't. 

The scientific community has historically been built upon skepticism.
This can be hard on those not used to it (i.e., don't take any of this
too personally [retorically]).  It does a little observation (except in CS 8),
proposes theory, but its key is TESTING, experimentation, and recently
application.  Some pseudo sciences, pre-sciences, etc. never get past
the earliest stages.  The sciences can keep an open mind; its very structure
is self correcting.  That does not mean that the bureacracy of science
is wrong, but it does try to keep "on track."  Witness the two directions
cold fusion and warm superconductors: limited work versus HS students
running to duplicate, now quiet applications being studied and sought.

>>Some may provide USEFUL results and become parts of the scientist's toolkit,
       ^^^ and equally may not
>>while others will remain mathematical amusements.
					^^^^^^^^^
>It depends on your orientation. If you want to be analytical, sure, then its
			yes, science tends to be   ^^^^^^^^^^
		this is called "reductionism," seems to work well
>a matter of what TOOL you can apply to what specific problem. But one should
>also be able to take a couple of steps back and see the whole picture. What
>is the gist of what I am trying to say? Therein lies my message.

>I was trying to elict an appreciation for the BEAUTY of what we have to date
						^^^^
>and where they might take us. Unfourtunatly, some are unable to grasp that.

This is a matter of individual interpretation, and some set of aesthetic
values.  There is a concept of scientific elegance, but you are speaking
of something different here.  I refer you to James Burke's closing
comment in his Connections series that of how science and technology
work versus how the arts and humanities work.  I was so impressed by that
statement I contacted Lynn White of the UCLA History Dept who gave me Burke's
address and number (fan communications).  Individual interpretation has
great limits (but noble), but knowledge which all can use is more powerful.

No, Rick is able to grasp what you are saying (having conversed with him
in person).  The problem is that people in science tend to get a bit weary
of fads.

This is getting away from graphics, I leave it to poster to edit the Newsgroups
line to some group like sci.edu or sci.math.

Another gross generalization from

--eugene miya, NASA Ames Research Center, eugene@aurora.arc.nasa.gov
  resident cynic at the Rock of Ages Home for Retired Hackers:
  "You trust the `reply' command with all those different mailers out there?"
  "If my mail does not reach you, please accept my apology."
  {ncar,decwrl,hplabs,uunet}!ames!eugene