Path: utzoo!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!mailrus!cs.utexas.edu!sun-barr!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!topaz.rutgers.edu!mccarrol
From: mccarrol@topaz.rutgers.edu (Mark C. Carroll <MC>)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Subject: Re: Forth, Creativity, Snobbishness, and the Future
Message-ID: <Jan.4.21.26.04.1990.14851@topaz.rutgers.edu>
Date: 5 Jan 90 02:26:08 GMT
References: <9001040122.AA11294@jade.berkeley.edu>
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.
Lines: 68

In article <9001040122.AA11294@jade.berkeley.edu> wmb@SUN.COM writes:

] ]   2] Let's try to develop some sort of STANDARD ENVIRONMENT! This
] ]     should include, at minimum:
] ]  a] Recursion
] ]  b] File I/O
] ]  c] Strings
] ]  d] Structures
] ]    And we should at least consider the following:
] ] a] Local Variables -- Nice, but kind of against the spirit
] ]          of Forth.
] ] b] Multi-tasking -- Also nice, but might be hard to come up
] ]   with a portable way of implementing it.
] 
] Many people agree with this desire, including many people on the ANSI
] committee.
] 

That's great, but I'm also strongly opposed to ANSI. I'm a college
student, so I tend to see things from the perspective of a person
who's short on money. Aside from the fact that ANSI standards seems to
be able to turn ANYTHING into a monolith, the standards themselves are
totally innaccessible to anyone who doesn't have a LOT of money to
blow.

If I want to be involved in the standardization process in any way,
how much does it cost me? More than I can possibly afford; that's
about all I'm sure of. What'll a copy of the standard cost me? $60!
That's insane! That's what I payed for a full commercial forth
system.. That's ridiculous. And I haven't even begun to consider
things like when will the standard be ready? It shouldn't take years,
as ANSI will. 

What I really want to see is something happening on this newsgroup, or
on a semi-private mailing list, that will develop a small, concise,
FREE description of a standard Forth for Unix. 

If people are interested, I am willing to set up a mailing list here
at Rutgers for discussions about a Usenet standard Forth.

Let me throw out some initial suggestions, so that you have even more
of a clue about what I personally want:
	1> C-based. Access to assembly is nice; in a Unix environment,
	  portability becomes more important. I'd rather devote some
	  energy to finding ways to link external functions, than
	  to include assemblers.
	2> Access to some Unix standard libraries. I really think we
	  need a standard file i/o.. If we're working in Unix, the
	  natural way is to do up a stdio subset in Forth.
	3> Steam files. Like I said before, I hate screens. 
	4> Standard recursion. I'm not willing to live without it.

That's just my personal preferences. If this becomes a project, it's
all open to negotiation.

So, anyone who's interested in Usenet standard Unix Forth, send mail
to:

	mccarrol@topaz.rutgers.edu
	...!rutgers.!topaz.rutgers.edu!mccarrol
	carroll@zodiac.bitnet

	<MC>
-- 
\ Mark Craig Carroll: <MC>          \ "Humanity isn't a physical description,
 \ Student Systems Programmer - LCSR \  it's a spiritual goal. It's not
  \ Rutgers University                \  something we're given, it's something
   \ mccarrol@topaz.rutgers.edu        \  we earn" -- Richard Bach, _One_