Path: utzoo!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!mailrus!cs.utexas.edu!usc!ucsd!sdcc6!ir230
From: ir230@sdcc6.ucsd.edu (john wavrik)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Subject: Re: Thoughts on Forth (was: Why don't people use Forth...)
Message-ID: <6001@sdcc6.ucsd.edu>
Date: 10 Jan 90 07:50:38 GMT
References: <756@noe.UUCP> <95.UUL1.3#5129@willett.UUCP> <3084@plains.UUCP> <231.UUL1.3#5129@willett.UUCP>
Organization: University of California, San Diego
Lines: 57



Doug Philips writes:

>Forth seems to be like a desert.  When first observed, it appears
>barren, but constantly shifting.  Closer inspection reveals life, but
>on a scale and of a type different from non-desert life.  Forth is powerful
>because it does not stand in your way.  It is frustrating to a novice because
>it is so slippery; one feels as if one has to re-invent half the world before
>taking a single step.

People don't often try to express the subjective aspect of a computer 
language. Doug Philips' attempt is the first that I've read in many years.
In the early days of Forth, the Forth Interest Group sponsored a Contest for 
the best description of Forth in 25 words or less. The winning entry was by 
Michael Ham:

            "Forth is like the Tao: it is a Way,
                and it is realized when followed.
             It's fragility is its strength;
                it's simplicity is its direction.

We've changed Forth in the past 10 years. Have we changed it from a language
in which simple pieces fit together in a strong and beautiful way to something 
which looks like a desert?  If so, we should all be *very* concerned.


>                                                                If
>Forth is declining in the few niches it has, perhaps it is because C's
>"bus route" has finally been put in, Ada's steamship now has a port of
>call.  If Forth is a frontierman's language, where is the frontier?

Here the problem is in assuming that Forth is trying to do what other 
languages do and go the same places that other languages go. Anyone who wants 
to go where the bus goes should take the bus! 

Perhaps Forth is declining because we're changing it from a language in which 
simple pieces fit together in a strong and beautiful way to something which 
looks like a desert!


Phil Koopman writes: 
>The frontier is small embedded systems, preferably those that do
>time-critical control.  They are still predominately done in
>assembler.  Now, through sheer inertia, C is moving in. But,
>Forth is really the way to go.  The question is, what do we do
>before they turn the wilderness into a paved lot? 

I'd be happier if Phil would include mathematics, physics, chemistry,
biology, medicine, oceanography, space physics, engineering, hardware control, 
and instrumentation to his frontier. (Particularly mathematics!) 


                                                  John J Wavrik 
             jjwavrik@ucsd.edu                    Dept of Math  C-012 
                                                  Univ of Calif - San Diego 
                                                  La Jolla, CA  92093