Path: utzoo!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!mailrus!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: hwt@.bnr.ca (Henry Troup) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: demons and such Message-ID: Date: 5 Feb 90 09:22:46 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: Bell-Northern Research, Ltd. Lines: 61 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu In article meow@wpi.wpi.edu (Catherine M Darensbourg) writes: > > What are reliable books for research into demonology?... >skeptical arguements "Oh, people who were supposedly possessed in the Bible >were only victims of epilepsy/Tourette's Syndrome/(pick your favorite disease). >There's no such thing as Satan!"... >the theory of "know thy enemy", and would like help in sorting through the >inevitable hype fit only for tabloids, and the real signs of demonic/diabolical >interference in the physical world. This is a question I've been meaning to ask in this group for a while - from the other side. I don't believe in Satan, deveils, nor Hell. I'm originally Scottish Episcopalian, now Canadian Anglican (little difference). My Scottish prayerbook footnotes the creed "...He descended into Hell" as 'the place of departed spirits'. To my not very certain knowledge, there is no scriptural authority for Hell of fire and brimstone, devils with pointy tails and pitchforks, etc. "The wages of sin are death." Therefore, the unredeemed die completely and finally, while the saved have perpetual spiritual life. Gehenna is the garbage incinerator for Jerusalem. As Jews do not permit cremation, the threat of Gehenna was a horrible one - but not eternal torment. Now, for the devil theory - I think that Christianity (actually but not formally) incorporated this from Persian dualism, specifically Mithraism. But, to me, the belief in devils is one of those self serving beliefs. If 'the devil made me do it', then it wasn't my fault. How could I resist the eternal Evil One, etc. Nonsense. All the evil of the world is the result of man's misuse of his free will. Happy to debate the issue, -- Henry Troup - BNR owns but does not share my opinions ..utgpu!bnr-vpa!bnr-fos!hwt%bmerh490 or HWT@BNR.CA [Devils with pitchforks are later Christian mythology, but I think you'll find the fire and brimstone quite clear in Rev. 1 Thes seems to indicate penal suffering, though it can be read your way also. Gehenna is certainly the name of a valley that was used as a garbage dump, but the situation seems a bit more complex than that. "Originally the name of a valley west of Jerusalem, where infants were offered in sacrifice to Moloch (4 Kgdms. xxiii.10, Jer. vii.31, xix. 5f. xxxxix. 35), and which subsequently was desecrated by Josiah and used for the burning of offal, Gehenna came to be employeed as a symbolic name for the place of future judgement. [cites 1 Enoch, 4 Ezra, Aboth]" (Vincent Taylor, "The Gospel according to St. Mark", p 411) I know that it's possible to read the NT as teaching primarily that people are annihilated rather than tortured forever. But the idea of eternal punishment does have substantial NT support. My own feeling is that there is not a single, detailed description of the judgement and what happens to those who are rejected. However all NT sources do agree that we will be judged, which seems the primary point. I think we have to trust God to do the judgement in a way that is consistent with his nature as a loving God. --clh]