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From: JWALES3@UA1VM.BITNET (Jimbo Wales)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Subject: Re: Yet another one....
Message-ID: <90044.1441.JWALES3@UA1VM>
Date: 13 Feb 90 14:41:11 GMT
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In-Reply-To:  Message of Mon, 12 Feb 90 18:15:09 EST from <PL436000@BROWNVM>

A typical Jimbo letter here, but at the bottom please find some humor.

On Mon, 12 Feb 90 18:15:09 EST Jamie said:
>But what I said was that private land is exploited more, not that it
>is in every case exploited more than every piece of Fed. land. And as
>long as the Fed. holds the land, we can control what happens to it.

I dispute the second claim, i.e. that 'we' (whoever that is!) can control
better the land belonging to the Federal Gov't than that belonging
to private citizens.

>
>Regarding an ESOP:
>> The common term for it is Syndicalism.  As von Mises defines it in
>> "Socialism"--"Every measure which takes the ownership of the means of
>> production from the entrepreneurs, capitalists, and landlords without
>> transferring it to the WHOLE of the citizens of the economic area,
>> is to be regarded as Syndicalism."

Actually, I think that Ralph is misreading either the original posting
about the steel plant, or Mises definition of syndicalism.  Syndicalism
is a political system.  Notice the definition quoted.  Ownership of the
means of production is still very much in the hands of the 'entrepreneurs
and capitalists' in that steel plant.  The owners just happen to work there,
is all.

>As though whatever von Mises says is the definition of a term must BE
>the definition, by fiat.

Whoa, Jamie... not fair at all.  If we are to discuss these issues, we need
terms with which to make hair-splitting distinctions.  Introducing a term
used by Mises is not illegitimate at all.  Do you have a quibble with
Mises definition?  Can you suggest a more useful word, or are you just
looking for a good angle to slam from?

>>  Syndicalism has never been anything else than the ideal of plundering
>> hordes."
>
>A magnificent argument. What has been demonstrated, I take it, is that
>von Mises is very fond of name calling. This I already knew. It
>suggests also that he knew very little about intellectual history--
>many people have advocated and <gasp!> actually practiced! various
>varieties of syndicalism.

Yikes! No fair again!  von Mises is widely recognized to have had a
staggering command of intellectual history.  Remember that von Mises
used words in a very precise manner.  Syndicalism could never be
practiced in full.  One might identify Syndicalist elements in various
social systems... but these would not be Syndicalism.

>I am told that it is von Mises' worst book. That's saying some.
>But I admit I have come upon Mises only recently--he may have other
>books that are much worse.

He does: I find _The Anti-Capitalist Mentality_ to be much worse from
a strictly academic perspective.  In that book, von Mises advances a
theory that 1> since capitalism is Obviously Superior to other systems
2> yet many otherwise clever intellectuals advance the dumbest arguments
against it 3> they must have some psychological defense mechanisms to
prevent them from thinking clearly.

I happen to somewhat agree with that thesis... but only on a very mild level.
People do not want to understand capitalism and are often unwilling to think
in a rational manner about it.

>> -Ralph Harris
>> "I know who John Galt is...I just want to find him!"

_Atlas Shrugged_ cast of characters on this list!

John Galt - Dan Evens (by virtue of being a physicist)
Hank Rearden - John Kelsey (as Rearden combines business and engineering,
                            John K. combines computer science and economics)
Danneskjold - Dave McKee (by virtue of his dramatic passion)
Midas Mulligan - Jimbo Wales (by virtue of his study of finance)
d'Anconia - Ralph Harris (by virtue of the fact that I wanted someone to
                          play the part of the third student, and he is here)

Dr. Pritchett - Jamie D.  (of course)
Dr. Stadler - John Kjoll  (by virtue of his scientific bent)

None of the rest of you 'fit' a character in the book as well as
these.

And so on.  I AM JUST JOKING! PLEASE DO NOT TAKE OFFENSE!!!

      --Jimbo