Path: utzoo!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!usc!ucla-cs!smcnet!byoder
From: byoder@smcnet.UUCP (Brian Yoder)
Newsgroups: comp.edu
Subject: Re: The ethics of dribble files
Summary: Learning too much...
Message-ID: <612@smcnet.UUCP>
Date: 13 Feb 90 06:50:29 GMT
References: <1691@skye.ed.ac.uk> <11184@thor.acc.stolaf.edu> <12769@wsucsa.uucp>
Organization: Santa Monica College, Santa Monica, CA 90405
Lines: 57

In article <12769@wsucsa.uucp>, hammer@wsucsa.uucp (Tim .D. Hammer) writes:
 
 
> In a school setting we worry about the teacher being able to check on our
> progress, this could be a useful item and in the right situation could
> lead to better work and more interaction on a project.  But used improperly
> leads to paranoia and resentment.

Quite true, particularly considering the existence of electronic mail and
word processing systems in which quite personal information might be
"dribbled" into the teacher's awareness.  Whether non-class work is
allowed or not, doing this in an unannounced way seems like phone taping.
If it is done (which I think is not a particularly good idea unless the 
dribbles are available for review and editing by the student) it should
not be done in secret.
 
> Another thought that has been posted is that of how resources are used-
> the REXX programming example. Have we become so cost-oriented that, as
> a colleague of mine (reading over my shoulder) said, "God forbid that the
> student learn more than they should!"  

When I was in school I had to fight this kind of attitude every day.  The
educational establishment seems full of teachers who are terrified of the
idea that a student might learn more than is on the syllabus (there are 
of course exceptions, but darn few in my experience).  At one time I
was considering spending the time to get a PhD in Computer Science.  Before
making my decision on this, I went on a little tour of the facilities
of the University (Michigan State in case anyone is interested) which I 
found reasonably impressive.  Later, I interviewed several of the 
professors to see if it was worth my time to take classes there.  One of
the questions I asked each of them was "What would I have to do to get
mainframe time to do exploratory programming and learning about how
the computer works, aside from my assigned programs?".  I already knew 
the answer (which was, "There is no way.") but I was interested in hearing
their opinions on the issue.  In each case, they started confused about what
I was asking for, and then became agitated as though I had asked permission
to break all of the windows in the building.  They seemed to not only 
disapprove of individual exploration of this kind, they didn't even
seem to understand it.  As a result, I chose not to enter the program there
(or anywhere else).  I don't know what to do about that attitude, but
it seems quite prevalent.

> I encourage my first-semester students
> to experiment and learn on their own because chances are they can learn
> things better that way as well as useful things that I might miss. Somehow
> we need to return to the Hacker Ethic as described by S. Levy in _Hackers_,
> open systems that encourage learning.

Good for you.  Keep up the good work.


Brian Yoder 
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| Brian Yoder                 | answers *byoder();                            |
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