Path: utzoo!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!clyde.concordia.ca!mcgill-vision!bloom-beacon!snorkelwacker!apple!mjohnson
From: mjohnson@Apple.COM (Mark B. Johnson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.apple
Subject: Re: develop, Dynamo, and life in general
Message-ID: <38402@apple.Apple.COM>
Date: 7 Feb 90 02:40:16 GMT
References: <21844@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU>
Organization: Apple Computer Inc, Cupertino, CA
Lines: 164

In article <21844@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU> fadden@cory.Berkeley.EDU (Andy McFadden) writes:

The following response comes from Eric Soldan of Apple II DTS (and author of
Dynamo and the article in _d e v e l o p_).  As we all say, these are his
opinions and not necessarily those of Apple Computer, his employer...


>Okay boys and girls, it's time to flame Apple again.

Hey, wait a minute!!  Flame me.  (Eric Soldan)  I wrote Dynamo, as well as
the article for _d e v e l o p_ because I thought it important for developers.
I was a developer for Apple II computers definitely before your family
had one, and most likely before you were using one in 4th grade.  I wrote
a lot of educational software, and you probably used some of it in
your formative years.  Given my experience, I know (or I think I know)
what is important to developers.  Either way, I wrote Dynamo for people
like me who are still out there writing great software, under deadlines,
with managers peering over their shoulder asking if it is done yet.

Let me also point out that there was no marketing strategy, plan, etc.
I did all of this stuff because I care.  And Apple let me do this on Apple
time because Apple cares.  I mentioned to authority-types here that the
Apple II could use a really well defined, powerful development system, and
that I thought I could put one together.  The authority-types said to go
for it, in the Apple tradition.  So I did.  This was all there was to it.
I chose MPW over APW.  Marketing didn't.

I believe in a powerful development system.  As an engineer here at Apple,
I need the most powerful development system I can get so that I can deliver
the goods to developers faster.  In this respect, my job here is no different
than what I did as a developer.  The demands on timeliness are no different--
only the customer has changed.

I also tried to do an APW version, but do to the limitations of the APW
assembler (and some bugs in there as well), I was not able to complete the
conversion.  Note that I did try, however.  I do realize the importance
of native development.  I know that there are really sharp programmers
out there that don't have a Mac.  (I was one for a long time.)

Let me state that you were not the only one to note the APW deficiency.
Currently, there is someone interested in making an APW version.  I don't
want to commit this individual by mentioning names here, but the statement
of intent was made on a public forum.  (Yes, this individual and I are
having a similar discourse at present.)  If you are interested in attempting
an APW version (or Merlin, or whatever), then be my guest.  The only
restriction is that you can't charge for the derivative product if you
choose to distribute it.

Hopefully at this point I have lowered the height of your "flame".  Maybe
it is no longer blow-torch size.  I will add comments to the rest of
your message as appropriate.

>There's a new publication from Apple called "develop."  If you're a member
>of the APDA, you'll get a Free Copy of this "Apple Technical Journal."
>
>What's inside?
>
>Yup, you guessed it, a whole bunch of Macintosh stuff.  No surprises there.
>
>But wait, what's this?  An article about "Dynamo", an exciting new development
>tool for the Apple II!  Hooray!
>
>Of course, you need a Macintosh to run it.  It only works within MPW.  This
>brings us to the topic of this letter.  I'm not going to flame "develop."
>It delivered what it promised.

The editors of _d e v e l o p_ did do a great job.  I appreciate their
publishing my article.  (Thanks, Louella.)

>I'd prefer to flame people like the Apple relations person who, after
>giving statistics about how many people said they were Mac developers,
>Apple II developers, or both, made a comment to the effect that many
>Apple II-only developers probably developed for both.  I guess working with
>these primitive machines screws up your eye-hand coordination.

A lot of developers do have both machines, and are capable of developing
on either one.  Some do mostly Mac development, and some do mostly Apple II
development.  Either way, many of them own a Mac.  I thought the Mac was
a cool machine when it first came out.  I had to go get one, just like I
had to have an Apple II when it came out.  I thought that "lasso" was just
the coolest thing I ever saw.  After doing about a million lassos in MacPaint,
I went and added a lasso to my own artwork editor for the Apple II.  I got
a lot of cool ideas just looking at the Mac.  I still do.

>The message I keep getting is, the Apple II isn't suited for development.
>Everybody who wants to develop Apple II or //gs software should do it on
>a Macintosh(tm).

The Apple II is suitable for Apple II development.  There is a more powerful
(and expensive) choice, however.  If you can afford the Porsche instead
of the Mustang, then, hey, why not?

>Sure, the closing lines of the article are "There is nothing wrong with
>developing Apple II software on an Apple II.  It just takes longer."*  Which
>is about as positive as Apple gets.
>[ * those two sentences have been reprinted without permission of the
>  author or Macintosh, Inc.  Sue me. ]

The words in this article are mine.  The editors of _d e v e l o p_ were
very nice in not changing everything we said, or changing the article to
fit some grand corporate scheme.  Apple is still a company of individuals,
fortunately, and the articles in _d e v e l o p_ reflect this.  So, if
you don't like the words, then flame me.  (AppleLink:  SOLDAN)

>But when you see this sort of thing all the time, and you see software
>developers leaving the Apple II for greener pastures, you kinda wonder if
>maybe, just maybe, the two events aren't totally unrelated.

I think you miss the entire point of Dynamo.  I wrote it so that Apple II
development could happen faster!  The easier it is, the more development
that will occur.  This was to HELP the Apple II, damn-it!

>The world at large doesn't care what you do.  The world doesn't develop
>software for System 5.0.  If Apple had their way, the world wouldn't even
>be developing software on a //gs at all.  Developers look at the hardware,
>and how Apple respects it.

Wait just one minute!  I work in Apple II Developer Technical Support!  MY JOB
IS TO SUPPORT PEOPLE WHO WRITE FOR THE APPLE II!  THE MAJORITY OF QUESTIONS
ARE 16-BIT RELATED!  OUR WHOLE GROUP EXISTS BECAUSE APPLE THINKS THE APPLE II
IS IMPORTANT.  STOP TELLING ME MY JOB ISN'T IMPORTANT!

>I've been using the Apple II since I was in 4th grade (I'm almost 21).
>The first computer my family owned was an Apple ][+ (march 1981).  The first
>and only computer I've ever purchased is my Apple //gs.  I've watched Apple
>slowly stifle it over the past six years.  I'm really tired of all this.
>
>I worked with an IBM PS/2 model 70 (25 MHz '386) over the summer (at Control
>Data Corp, ironically across the parking lot from Claris in Santa Clara).
>It was the latest and the greatest that IBM had to offer.  And it ran
>software that was written before the Macintosh was invented.
>It got bigger, it got better, it got much faster.  But it never forgot where
>it started from.
>
>Introducing a new Apple // at 6.2 MHz would be the end of the line.  It
>wouldn't sell any more //gs units then are already being sold (and that
>number is dwindling thanks to stupid Apple marketing practices).  After
>putting that much effort into a failed piece of hardware, there's no way
>Mr. Pepsi would go forward with any more Apple // CPUs.

There is a lot of personal opinion in here.  Be careful -- somebody might
not recognize this for the blatent opinion that it is and might actually
believe you.

>Macintosh, Inc. has two choices.  Drop the Apple //, or set the world on
>fire with a new //gs.  Become an innovator like you once were, not
>the idiots who produced the //c+ (a Laser 128/EX with an Apple sticker on it).

And as a final note:  Thank you for being concerned enough to flame us.
We care what people think, and we do keep track of what is being written.
Stay in touch.

Eric Soldan
(AppleLink: SOLDAN)
(Internet:  SOLDAN@AppleLink.Apple.com)


-- 
Mark B. Johnson                                            AppleLink: mjohnson
Developer Technical Support                         domain: mjohnson@Apple.com
Apple Computer, Inc.         UUCP:  {amdahl,decwrl,sun,unisoft}!apple!mjohnson

"You gave your life to become the person you are right now.  Was it worth it?"
                                                         - Richard Bach, _One_