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From: sanders@sanders.austin.ibm.com (Tony Sanders)
Newsgroups: comp.software-eng,comp.lang.c
Subject: Re: Errors aren't that simple
Message-ID: <1714@awdprime.UUCP>
Date: 6 Mar 90 00:56:39 GMT
References: <39400075@m.cs.uiuc.edu> <8192@hubcap.clemson.edu>
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Reply-To: sanders@sanders.austin.ibm.com (Tony Sanders)
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Organization: IBM AWD, Austin, TX
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In addition to the multitudinous messages already written on this subject
I would like to add a couple thoughts.
In article <8192@hubcap.clemson.edu> billwolf%hazel.cs.clemson.edu@hubcap.clemson.edu writes:
>From marick@m.cs.uiuc.edu:
>> There are two assertions in Bill Wolfe's message:
>> 1.  The C community releases an unacceptable number of errors.
Bill, please tell us exactly what the error rate is.
I assume you must have some stats to back this up (maybe lines/errors?),
or are you just making stuff up?

>> 2.  The C language is at least partly the *cause* of those errors.
Nope, programmers that don't have a clue is mostly the cause of
those errors (referring to stupid errors that Bill claims were caused
by the C language).

>  3.  Many members of the C community exhibit an unprofessional and
>        irresponsible attitude regarding defect control and especially
>        defect prevention.   
>  4.  Those members of the C community who ARE responsible professionals
>        are apparently not taking significant actions to raise the level
>        of software engineering professionalism within the C community.  
On reason you might have this observation is because Joe Smith gets a
computer and *Shazam* he's a "real programmer" (CSMAJORS for short).

    (note: CSMAJORS here only refers to those people who got
	   the CS degree because it pays well, there are of
	   course "real programmers (tm)" that have CS degrees)

The current market demand for programmers exceeds the supply of "real
programmers (tm)" thereby creating a demand for CSMAJORS.  The reason
these people exist is because of the demand for people to fill
programming jobs.  If employers were not willing to pay top dollar for
these people as programmers they would not be programmers at all, they
would go and get themselves an MBA or whatever they could use to make
the most money.

>   The unsafe constructs within C are themselves sufficient evidence to
>   conclude that the C community, by choosing to use a language which has
>   many highly unsafe constructs and an almost total disregard for error 
>   prevention, does not hold error prevention in sufficiently high regard;
Bullshivicky!  What does the level of handholding a language provides
have to do with anything.  Making unsupportable claims undermines your
argument (again).

>                          as opposed to holding its existing reputation
>   as a community which contains an extremely high percentage of those who
>   regard themselves as hackers, and whose products repeatedly make national 
"regard themselves as hackers" is a key phrase here.  You are again
talking about the CSMAJORS, and this has nothing to do with the
"C-community".  This is a problem in any language, there are more
CSMAJORS programming in C simply because it is becoming the language
of choice (with good reason in my opinion).

In the future if you want to flame some group for all the buggy code
out there, go talk to the people who hire people who can't program.
-- sanders
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