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From: aperez@cvbnet.UUCP (Arturo Perez x6739)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.c,comp.software-eng
Subject: Re: C Community's Cavalier Attitude On Software Reliability
Message-ID: <54@cvbnetPrime.COM>
Date: 28 Feb 90 16:41:34 GMT
References: <8147@hubcap.clemson.edu>
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From article <8147@hubcap.clemson.edu>, by wtwolfe@hubcap.clemson.edu (Bill Wolfe):
> 
>  Following are some prime examples of why the C community is thought 
>  of by many as having an unprofessional and irresponsible attitude 
>  toward software reliability:
>   
	.... examples deleted ....
> 
>  When examples such as these are combined with the existence of so many
>  blatantly unsafe constructs within the C language, and the fact that C
>  software seems to erode public confidence in software reliability on a
>  regular basis (Nationwide Computer Network Infected By Worm; National 
>  Telecommunications System Crashes), it would seem appropriate to ask:

I'm frankly offended by the attitude displayed here.  I admit that C is
not the safest language to code in; it is, after all, just an abstract
kind of assembly language.  But if you don't like it, don't use it.  There
are "safer" languages to use, e.g. lisp, pascal, cobol.

But what offends me are these assumptions that
	1) C is responsible for the bad reputation software has.
	2) We need a C gestapo to enforce good coding practice.
	3) You can indict the whole C user community because of
	   a few "unreliable" applications.

All of the above assumptions are false.

Software has a bad reputation stemming from the days when IBM was writing
the OS for the 360, sometime in the 1960's.  And it hasn't gotten any better
with Companies (not Individuals) who make rash announcements of their products
and fail to deliver; usually due to unspecified "software problems."  Not all
of these companies use C; I doubt that the majority do.  I know that many
engineering companies still use Fortran.

Who is going to be the Gestapo?  I personally don't know anyone who would
want the job or be any good at it.

And, finally, since when can you indict a whole community based on the actions
of a few individuals?  Sounds like an "ism" to me.  What's the ratio of 
"well written" applications to "poorly written" applications?  If it's not
damn close to 0% then I think you're way offbase.

> 
>    When is the C community going to clean up its act???

When are "software engineers" going to clean up their acts?  I have on my
wall a list of excuses for DELIVERING poorly written, inadequately debugged
applications.  Why does these applications get released?  Because MANAGERS
decide what the deadlines are with little input from the engineers and
release the software based on criteria other than engineering considerations.
The number one reason (in my experience) for "bad" software is lack of time
and that lack of time is imposed from above.  There are only so many 70 hour
weeks you can put in.

> 
>  It appears that there is a real need to publicize software engineering 
>  concepts throughout the C community, both directly through software
>  engineering education and indirectly through a redesign of the C language
>  to provide greater support for the software engineering process.  If
>  these steps are taken, it will hopefully be possible to avoid any further
>  destruction of the public's confidence in software reliability.  If not,
>  government regulation of the field will probably soon become inevitable.

I don't believe that your efforts at education should be limited to "people
who write in C."  The problem you've very poorly addressed here is much more
pandemic than just being "people who write in C."

> 
> 
>  Bill Wolfe, wtwolfe@hubcap.clemson.edu
>  
Arturo Perez
ComputerVision, a division of Prime
aperez@cvbnet.prime.com
Too much information, like a bullet through my brain -- The Police