Path: utzoo!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!ucbvax!hplabs!hpda!hpcuhc!runyan
From: runyan@hpcuhc.HP.COM (Mark Runyan)
Newsgroups: comp.software-eng
Subject: Re: Errors aren't that simple
Message-ID: <2480005@hpcuhc.HP.COM>
Date: 2 Mar 90 17:37:11 GMT
References: <39400075@m.cs.uiuc.edu>
Organization: HP GSY/USO/UKL Cupertino, CA, USA
Lines: 38

>/ billwolf%hazel.cs.clemson.edu@hubcap.clemson.edu (William Thomas Wolfe) 
>From marick@m.cs.uiuc.edu:
>> There are two assertions in Bill Wolfe's message:
>> 1.  The C community releases an unacceptable number of errors.
>> 2.  The C language is at least partly the *cause* of those errors.
>  3.  Many members of the C community exhibit an unprofessional and
>        irresponsible attitude regarding defect control and especially
>        defect prevention.   
>  4.  Those members of the C community who ARE responsible professionals
>        are apparently not taking significant actions to raise the level
>        of software engineering professionalism within the C community.  

As a memember of your so-called 'C community', I find your postings
offensive and nearly meaningless.  The only point that comes from it
that I agree with is that C programmers (or any programmer) should be
learning more about software engineering, especially the new developments.

>   The unsafe constructs within C are themselves sufficient evidence to
>   conclude that the C community, by choosing to use a language which has
>   many highly unsafe constructs and an almost total disregard for error 
>   prevention, does not hold error prevention in sufficiently high regard;

Those very constructs which you despise are what allows C to be a useful
language.  The fact that some engineers use the poorly does not mean that
C is any more deadly than driving a car or riding a motorcycle.

In my opinion, which may seem cavilar or unprofessional to you, Mr Wolfe,
your message could have been put in terms that wouldn't insult a large
number of engineers who have done considerable work to reduce the number
of defects in code around the world (or even to ensure that no defects
are ever released).  Perhaps you could have convinced more people that
your point of view was reasonable if you hadn't been so insulting to
begin with.  If you are going to continue to try to 'improve' the
'C community', I wish you luck, for you are going to need it if you 
continue to use your current tactics.

Mark Runyan   A C programmer and proud of it.
{runyan@hpda.hp.com 408)447-6676}