Path: utzoo!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: st0o+@andrew.cmu.edu (Steven Timm) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Wine...(long) Message-ID: Date: 6 Mar 90 08:52:08 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Lines: 237 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu This is the latest contribution to the continuing flamefest on wine on both internet.christia and netnews.soc.religion.christian. It seems that the more I post on wine the more flames I draw. Therefore, introductory comments are in order: A quote from the preface of Bacchiocchi's book "Wine In The Bible" (4569 Lisa Lane, Berrien Springs, MI 49103, $12.95) copyright 1989. "It is only when a Christian recognizes that drinking is not only a bad habit that can harm our health, but a transgression of a God-given principle to ensure our health and holiness, that he or she will feel compelled to abstain from intoxicating substances." (Pg. 42) With the above statement I don't agree. I don't believe anything is gained by adding a spiritual guilt trip to the guilt feelings which alcoholics already feel. Therefore I am at odds with the purpose of Dr. Bacchiocchi's book. Nevertheless I feel that he has brought out some important points in this book which need to be brought out to balance the blanket statements which have been made in both newsgroups about there being no way to preserve grape juice in Biblical times, and how all instances of wine in the NT are fermented. Clearly anyone who claims that the Bible teaches total abstinence faces some formidable Biblical challenges. I must admit to not having read any sources by more liberal theologians or more well-informed scientists. I hope that someone will supply the relevant sources pointing to the use of fermented wine in the OT, as I don't have access to these. And, although I don't necessarily agree myself with everything in the book (or other books by the same author) , here is the synopsis of the argument of one arch-conservative scholar. >In a 4-Mar-90 Post, mls@cbnewsm.ATT.COM (mike.siemon) writes: >Stephen Timm is suffering from some misconceptions about wine in the >ancient (or modern) world. >He writes: >> when wine is praised as that "which gladdeneth both God and man" >> the word for unfermented grape juice is used. >I'm afraid that counts as assuming what you want to prove, not a tactic >that recommends itself when the matter is in dispute. You got me there, Mike. Closer reading reveals that there are two basic words for wine in the OT: tirosh and yayin. Also there is shekar, translated as "strong drink" in the KJV and ever since (although Bacchiocchi doesn't agree that strong drink is the correct translation in Deut. 14:26) Tirosh is the Hebrew word for grape juice (per Strong's Concordance). This is praised in a number of locations, and translated in the KJV as wine. However I suggested in my last post that yayin, the Hebrew word for wine, was universally condemned in the OT. This is in fact not so. Yayin is the word in such passages as "Wine is a mocker," but there are other passages where it is mentioned in a neutral or positive context (Song of Solomon 1:2,4 4:10. Bacchiocchi's argument is that the word yayin can be used to refer to either fermented or unfermented wine. He cites sources from the Jewish Encyclopedia (Wine, The Jewish Encyclopedia, 1906, vol 12, p. 533, and Encyclopedia Judaica, 1971, vol 16. p. 538) which indicate independent and contemporary usage of yayin for unfermented wine and that such was allowable in Jewish ceremonies. In the NT, the overwhelming number of references to wine are to the Greek word oinos, whence we get our present word oenology. Again, Greek possesses a word for grape juice as well [gleukos] , but it occurs only in Acts 2:13. Clearly any attempt to suggest a NT teaching of abstinence will have to establish the type of wine produced by Jesus at Cana (John 2). We must understand the parable of new wine and old wineskins (Luke 5:39). We must establish the "fruit of the vine" and "the cup" used at the Lord's Supper. We must answer the charge on the day of Pentecost, "These men are drunk on new wine." (Acts 2:13). We will have to successfully explain the charge "Behold, a gluttonous man, and a winebibber" (Luke 7:33-35) laid against Jesus. Finally, we must answer Paul's admonition to Timothy "Use a little wine for the sake of your stomach..." (1 Timothy 5:23). Such a task is so formidable that few have tried it. Whether Dr. Bacchiocchi has succeeded can really only be determined by reading his book and the other sources both pro and con that he cites. A synopsis of his argument follows. The Septuagint translation from Hebrew to Greek translates both tirosh and yayin as oinos, or wine. This indicates that oinos referred both to fermented and unfermented wine, and this point is supported with various references to classical Greek literature. WEDDING FEAST AT CANA: Bacchiocchi quotes Roman authors of the time (Pliny, Plutarch) to suggest that "good wine" was not necessarily considered to be the most alcoholic. The greek word for "well drunk" is analyzed and shown to not necessarily indicate intoxication. NEW WINE IN OLD WINESKINS New wine was not (as many have suggested) placed into wineskins to ferment. Neither old or new wine was put into skins to ferment--fermentation was carried out in jars. (Alexander Bruce--Expositor's New Testament) New wine here refers to unfermented juice, filtered and boiled, and then stored in skins. Old skins could not be used for new wine precisely because old sediment would lead to fermentation and rupture of the skin. {shaky.. study this one out for yourself. But this is not the only place where new wine is mentioned in the Bible in non-intoxicating context. Read on} "THE FRUIT OF THE VINE" Note that in none of the Lord's Supper accounts does the term oinos appear. Bacchiocchi quotes contemporary writings from Josephus where 'gennema tes ampelou' (the fruit of the vine) explicitly describes grape juice. The Jewish Encyclopedia indicates that the wine of the Seder service was unfermented, as does Louis Ginzberg, a Talmud scholar. Bacchiocchi asserts without proof that Orthodox Jews to this day employ unfermented wine. He cites a long list of church authorities, including St. Thomas Aquinas, indicating that unfermented alcohol is permissible in the sacrament. "DRUNK ON NEW WINE" Here the only use of 'gleukos' in the Bible, a Greek word for nonintoxicating grape juice. This taunt was a mockery, knowing that the disciples did not drink wine, the crowds mocked their temperance by teasing them about being drunk on grape juice. "GLUTTONOUS MAN AND WINEBIBBER" Careful: The text said that Jesus came drinking, but not necessarily all kinds of wine. John the Baptist, by contrast, as a Nazirite, abstained from wine and from grapes. If we believe the accusations of the scribes and Pharisees, then Jesus was also a Samaritan, and had a demon, and was mad. A LITTLE WINE FOR THE STOMACH Bacchiocchi quotes Aristotle, Athenaeus, and Pliny to show that unfermented grape juice was known and used by the Greeks of that time for medicinal value. (although fermented wine was as well). But could unfermented juice be stored? I gave a rough description in an earlier short post which was rightly flamed. Again from Mike Siemon >SCT> (a) Grapes were in season at various times during the year, and the >SCT> juice could be prepared fresh as needed (and often was) >This is simply wrong. Grapes will have matured a bit differently in >the different climates of the Near East, but in any given climate the >ripening will be subject to only "microclimatic" variation of days or >weeks at most. Mea culpa. But have you ever heard of raisins? >SCT> (b) Sources indicate that the freshly-squeezed must was often boiled >SCT> down and stored for months at a time without fermentation >This is at least theoretically possible -- raise the sugar content high >enough and you get a syrup inhospitable to yeast. I assume Bacchiocchi >found some obscure mentions of this. For this to be relevant to the >issue, there would have to be documentary or archaeological evidence that >such a technique was in *common* practice in ancient Palestine. Here is >where I *would* like to see the references. OK. Most of Bacchiocchi's sources are Roman. Pliny refers to sapa and defrutum as boiled must of 1/3 and 1/2 the original volume. Also to passum, a unfermented raisin-wine. All these had high sugar content and were thus less likely to ferment. Josephus also refers to stores of wine, oil, fruits, etc. at Masada (though his claim of a hundred years is incredulous). de Bost in the Dictionaire de la Bible suggests that the Hebrew 'debash' translated as 'honey' in KJV may actually refer to a thick grape syrup, taking as a basis the beverage known as 'dibs' in Arabic, known in Syria and Palestine to the present day. Sources A. Russell, Natural History of Aleppo. Kitto, Cyclopedia of Biblical Literature. >SCT> Grape juice could also be and was preserved by sealing with various >SCT> sealants or by immersion in underground springs. >No. Yeast produce alcohol from sugar (in grape juice) by anaerobic reactions. >Sealing grape juice will *not* prevent it from turning into wine; sealing is >a treatment for preserving *already fermented wine* from turning into vinegar >(which *is* an aerobic reaction). As long as yeasts are present -- and they >*wil* be, they form the "bloom" on the skins of the grapes -- the juice WILL >ferment to wine within a few days. This will be very frothy and yeasty and >undrinkable wine by our standards, but grape juice without modern preserva- >tives WILL have an appreciable alcohol content within 24 hours of its pressing. Unless it is kept at very cold temperatures. Below 4 C, fermentation doesn't occur. Both the conditions: sealing, and cold temperatures, are required. In that respect my first post was incorrect. Bacchiocchi quotes Collumella and Cato to show that this method was known to the Romans. Bacchiocchi admits that archaeological data is lacking in Palestine. Quite right, however, that sealing won't stop fermentation at normal temperatures and will stop fermentation into vinegar. Further correction: Lactic acid fermentation is not undesirable. It's not correct to say that the problems of wine storage are the same as those of storing grape juice. This is not to say that it wasn't difficult to store, however. Cato and Columella both mention marble dust, resin, or boiled must (g.j.) as a preservative for wine. Further reading on the subject. Supporting Bacchiocchi: (one of his major sources) Robert Teachout Wine: The Biblical Imperative: Total Abstinence Available from the author 12518 Hanfor, Allen Park MI 48101. $5.00. Note that while Bacchiocchi is a 7th Day Adventist (and I am as well, as I've stated openly in previous posts on the net) Teachout is not. A more liberal perspective: Kenneth L. Gentry, The Christian and Alcoholic Beverages (Grand Rapids, 1986) Now: for all the fundamentalists, who having seen the remarkable convincingness of this argument, and the previous one, are prepared to support me with flames: Some advice. If you notice, in this post I've recanted at least five mistakes I made in the previous post. Since this post is significantly longer, there are probably more errors in it. These are all errors made describing a book which itself may contain mistakes (or more likely) a great deal of bias. If you really *need* a scriptural argument to not drink, please don't take my word for it! And if this tenuous study in support of abstinence is all that's keeping you from drinking, you're setting yourself up to have your bubble blown by the first person who's read more than you. For those who are composing their response flame as they read this message, please make cogent arguments as Mike Siemon did, rather than two-sentence appeals to logic and technology. I'll supply more references on request, but there are hundreds of entries in Bacchiocchi's bibliography and I didn't want to waste unnecessary bandwidth unless someone is actually going to look them up. Peace, Steve