Path: utzoo!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!mailrus!accuvax.nwu.edu!nyevax!steve
From: nyevax!steve@CAS.ORST.EDU (Steve Dodd)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.islam
Subject: Re: Taq'ia
Message-ID: <4586@accuvax.nwu.edu>
Date: 2 Mar 90 01:22:45 GMT
Sender: news@accuvax.nwu.edu
Lines: 138
Approved: naim@eecs.nwu.edu (Naim Abdullah)

Naim writes:

 >So why do you keep harping on shias ? Why not just accept that you and I
 >are not competent to judge anybody ? Leave judgements to Allah. People
 >who believe in Allah and the Quran are muslims and they are our brothers and
 >sisters in Islam (regardless of whether they identify themselves as shias
 >or sunnis).

Beacuse as a new Muslim I know nothing about Islam.
Beacuse I have seen blood shed over it.  In front of my own eyes.
I have been asked to fight over things I don't understand!
If it embarrases you tough!

 >If you are starving, it is permissible to eat pork to save your life.

No one here seems to be starving.  However, there are Muslims all
over the world who are and still don't easily give in to shaytan.

 >If you refuse to accept Abbas's explanation and claim that *he* is
 >practicing "Taq'ia" then your claim about not being divisive
 >is pretty hollow.

I am certainly not trying to be divisive.  If you can't figure out
among yourselves what what you are doing why do you blame me for
that.  This is all just arguing from people who have forgotten
to make Islam.

 >>  In addition I have been personally accosted at
 >>our local Islamic Center by pamphlet pushing shia who are actively
 >>trying to cause problems with any one who'll listen to them.  Why
 >>should I care about their strange beliefs when Islam is so clearly
 >>outlined in the Qur'an and sunna?

 >Why do you insist on identifying them as "shia" ? Why not just say
 >that you have been accosted by rude people who are trying to push

So they called themselves.  The were pushing pamphlets by Khomeini
before during and after juma' prayer.  They started fights and when
some of us tried to understand them they told us lies.

 >Please understand that it takes all kinds of people.

I have stuck up for them on numerous occasions just to have them
turn on me when they had trouble with other brothers.  How is it
possible that one American guy caused all this division 1000
years after it all started?  I don't want to hear any more talk
about how it takes all kinds of people.  I have all kinds of
people all around me.  I want to hear about Islam!  If you want
Islam you'd feel the same.

 >>their leaders which exceed the limits of Islamic thinking.  These
 >>leaders claim for themselves special powers.  When I ask some
 >>shia here about this they practice taqiyya, or shall I say they
 >>just lie about it.  Later others of them admit this.
 >>                           ^^^^^^

 >Maybe the shia sect is not monolithic on this issue. Maybe they have
 >different opinions about this issue. Why do you insist on interpeting
 >this lack of a quorum as evidence of deception ?

Beacuse I have been decieved by it. Now I want the whole truth.
How am I to know this unless I investigate it.  If you say there are sects
in Islam and that they all oppose my calling for the Islam of the Qur'an
and Hadith then you certainly know more than I.  But it seems to me,
in my amaturish way that there is a BIG BIG BIG problem in Islam
as practiced by many Muslims today.  It can't be my fault just
because I discovered it.  It is no wonder to me that I see deception
as lying ... even most of the kufar have a value for telling the truth.

Millions of old world muslims have died over this ... is that my fault
because I call for the sunna?  No, I think it is those muslims fault!

 >>of sects.  Those that wish to analyse sects should get back into Islam!
                               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
 >This is interesting, given that your whole article was an analysis
 >(however poor) of the shia sect. Why not just accept them as your
 >brothers and sisters in Islam and leave judgement of their beliefs to Allah ?

I think I did pretty well to discover a religious sect, aside from Islam,
that deceives people about religion for the purpose of protecting
itself.  Such information is a revelation to me after many years.  I
don't judge anyone here ... I have been asking questions and growing
in understanding.  Is that not allowed?

 >Who appointed you judge upon the appropriateness of the beliefs of muslims ?

If the shoe fits wear it.  I am not trying to judge anything but beliefs.
I am not trying to lead anyone, but rather to not be mislead.  I
have fallen into trouble over this before with Christians, Muslims and
who knows who else.  Islam seems very clear to me.  Even the kufar seem
to understand it better than some muslims trying to evade it.

 >and opinions. Why do you have this urge to stand in judgement of other
 >people's beliefs ?

Because most people ... me included fail to believe correctly and that
once you quit testing this in yourself and others you'll quickly
end up on your knees in front of some idol.  I.E. money, government etc.

 >>The word Islam is the copyright of Allah for His religion.  He never
 >>intended for people to play around about versions like it was some kind
 >>of software.

 >You have no proof that YOUR version of Islam is the one Allah intended.
 >All you have is your opinion. You are certainly entitled to that. But
 >please respect other muslims' rights to have their own view of Islam
 >which might be different than yours.

 I have no plans to do anything about anyones views ... like most
 raised in the West I only speak for myself.  While I have no proof
 that my ideas are correct I do believe that Allah only intended
 one version.  Others may discuss anything they like and still
 be Muslims but when they ascribe other names to themselves they
 confuse their own deen.  The religon belongs to Allah and no one
 can claim otherwise to me.

 >Second, according to Abbas's explanation, taqia is to be used in life
 >threatening situation to save your life. People who practice deception as "an
 >offensive tool against Islam" are just LYING. And you should refer to it as
 >such. It would not qualify as "taqia".

Exactly my point!  Do bear in mind I couldn't get anyone to talk to me about
taqiyya in all the time I've been interested.  The fact that you are aware
of it and have devloped a sense of it is a privilage you have on me.  I
really see no point in studying a term which is apart from Islam.  So I
find the knowledge of how to use it useless.  I know those calling for it
are outside the Islam I understand!

 >It is unfortunate that soc.religion.islam is having this discussion. It is
 >a low point of this newsgroup.

It is unfortunant that all of the smart Muslims only respond to difficult
questons by attacking the Muslim who asked.  Perhaps that's why I don't
believe much of your argument.  It seems to be justifying a wrong
instead of clarifying it.  This news group has been in a low point
since it started being a forum for the moderators to attack the readers.

Omar